Raising goats

[beelbill]

What does it take to raise goats? If I get 1.5 acres of grass, how many goats does that support? What do you feed them in the winter?

[just me]

Again, so much depends on where you live.

Try your local extension office for details. I know when I first started in goats many years ago, they were a big help to me.

[Timex1954]

I would definitely recommend visiting someone local who currently raises goats. Volunteer to help out for two or three months. You will get a really good idea of what is involved. The Ag office would be informational, but they cannot give you any idea of the huge mistakes you can make, the major loss of investment that can happen overnight, nor the vigilence it takes to keep the herd healthy and happy.

[goatlady]

1.5 acres of GRASS will not support a single goat, person. Grass is a goat's last on the list choice of browse - they eat like deer, browsers not grazers. They prefer weeds, brush, bushes, trees, flowers. In the winter time you must "hay" and it's sometimes hard to find a "hay" they will eat though most seem to prefer orchard grass/alfalfa combination, NOT horse or cow hay though. Do some reading and research and then we will be happy to answer thought out questons.

[Little RedRidingHood]

Do a web search and go to the American Dairy Goat Association site and start reading! Go to your local ag office and talk to the extention agent. Go to the local library and read some more.

Next step is finding a local breeder, a GOOD local breeder, who takes proper care of their stock. People who still do "NOT" believe that goats can exist on air, garbage, paper and can be tied on a chain and left in the front yard while the neighbors let their dogs run free! Broken neck or eaten goat or both!!

Next ... really important step ... Is IF you decide to do this ... buy a goat ... Please, please, please put up a PROPER goat fence first, then build the small house, build your milk stand, buy your grain, and have everything done BEFORE bringing home your animal.

I've raised goats for nearly 40 years now. I can not tell you how many times I have had buyers in the past call crying on the other end cause they did NOT take care of all this stuff before hand. It has gotten to where I refuse to sell any stock anymore. Any we don't want to keep for milking, show or breeding are put in the freezer and eaten! I have nice stock and they are all papered and would help out the money end of things but I have seen so many of the animals I've sold over the years forced to endure things that were just horrible. That is why I also no longer sell any horses and have stopped my breeding program.

Please learn all you can. Educate yourself, and any others who will be helping you, so that your animals will have a good life and be able to return the love and care by giving you lots of fat, happy baby goat kids, and lots of great, fresh, healthy dairy products.
If you need any help pm me and I will help you anyway I can to get started.

[goatlady]

Right on, LRRH!!! I have taken the same stand these days.

[Freeholder]

I won't sell goats to a pet owner, but if it's someone who is serious about learning how to take care of them, and is going to use them for what God made them for (supplementing the family food supply), then I think it's good to help those people get started.

The advice given above to get your facilities (fence, shelter, and so on) built BEFORE you get the goats is really important! It's so easy to get the critters, and then have to hussle around and try to get the shelter and the fencing taken care of -- been there, done that!

The first thing you need in order to raise goats is good fencing. They are probably the hardest animal to fence in (other than maybe bison and elephants!). Barbed wire isn't good for goats -- they are thin skinned, they WILL go through it, and they WILL get cut up in doing so. Woven wire field fencing will work IF you have a couple of HOT electric wires on stand-off insulators on the inside of their pen, so they can't stand on the woven wire and make it sag. (They like to stand up on stuff with their front feet, and can push even a good tight fence down, or over.) Chain link will work. Some people use no-climb horse fencing with electric wire and say that works well. I like cattle panels, although it would be expensive to fence an acre and a half with them. And they need posts in the middle (they are sixteen feet long; use a post every eight feet) as the goats will bow them out by standing up on them, at least where they can see people or something else they'd like to get to.

Gates need to be tight, also, and they need to have good latches that the goats can't open -- they are nearly as agile with their lips as a monkey with it's fingers.

Goats actually will eat grass -- if that's all they've got. They'll prefer a weedy pasture to a nice clean one, and a brushy one with young trees and blackberry bushes is even better. We need to know where you are before we can say how many goats your acre and a half will be able to support. In a humid climate, you might be able to pasture as many as nine on that land with good attention to pasture management; in the desert, you would do well to feed one. Using intensively managed grazing (multiple small paddocks and frequently moving the goats to fresh feed) can allow you to either stock more animals at least during the best growing time, or to cut some hay off it for the winter. Whatever you do, you need to carefully observe your animals, and if they start to get thin, reduce your stocking rate or supplement their feed. If they are over-fat, give them more exercise, or cut back on the feed a little bit. (Over-fat is no healthier than excessively thin.) You don't say if you want goats for meat or for milk; if for milk, I would suggest (if you are in the humid East) only getting a couple of does -- you can't keep a goat alone, as they are herd animals and will be very happy and very noisy! You should have plenty of pasture for them on half an acre or less, and could probably cut enough hay by hand for the winter off the un-used portion of your land. Goats who are fed year-round require about a ton of hay per year; reduce that amount by the percentage of the year yours will be on pasture. If you'll have to feed them for six months, then each will need half a ton of hay. Alfalfa or some other leguminous hay is best for milkers, as it's high in calcium to replace the calcium they are putting out in their milk. They'll also need some grain, depending on how much milk they are producing.

Goats need a LOOSE (NOT block) mineral salt that is high in copper. Don't feed them sheep mineral, which is way too low in copper (copper is toxic to sheep, essential to goats), and don't feed cattle supplements that have urea in them, as that can be toxic to goats. Horse mineral will be okay if you can't find goat mineral. You can buy or build a feeder for the mineral, which needs to be kept clean and dry. I built one of 4" PVC pipe; it lasted for about three years before the goats finally bashed it to pieces (and it was outside of their pen). So now I just hand feed mineral to them about every two or three days. It's good to hand-feed something, anyway, to keep them attached to you. Very handy, when they get out and are munching on the neighbor's roses or fruit trees, or walking on his new car, to be able to rattle a bucket of grain and have them come running!

They need a constant supply of CLEAN water -- this is hard to manage, as they will poop and pee in their water buckets without a thought (don't ever let anyone tell you that goats are intelligent; they are clever, but NOT intelligent!). It's best to have the water buckets on the outside of their fence, with a hole just big enough for them to stick their heads through to drink (don't get horned goats -- they'll get their heads stuck in the fence). You will have to keep a close eye on this arrangement if you have any goats small enough to fit through the hole in the fence -- if they are very small, they could land in the water bucket and drown. (I haven't lost any this way, but have had some very wet kids!) It is also best to have their hay feeder set up so they 1. can't get into it, as they'll soil the feed with manure on their hooves, and then won't eat it (or they'll poop and pee in the manger and won't eat the hay there); 2. can't poop and pee in the manger from outside of it; and 3. can't pull feed out and drop it on the floor of their pen. My goats can pull some feed out, and do drop it; I use this to my advantage, as bedding is as expensive as hay here, so the dropped hay is their bedding. But you may not want to use your hay supply for bedding! If you buy or borrow one of the goat care books you should find pictures and plans for a keyhole feeder. These work well, as long as kids can't climb into them (kids are amazing in the places they can go and the small holes they can get through), and as long as your goats don't have horns!

Unless you live in the Arctic, shelters do not have to close up tight or be insulated. Mine have weathered ten below in an agricultural shelter (hoop house with a heavy tarp on it) that is open at both ends. Hopefully I'll get the north end closed up again this year (the tarp door came unzipped, and I have to borrow a tall step-ladder to get it back together). But the goats were dry, and had deep bedding, which heats up. They had plenty of food and water, and they came through the winter just fine (though my two kids would have been kid-sickles by morning if I hadn't brought them indoors just as soon as they were born).

Goats need some regular care. They need to be wormed at least a couple of times a year (check with an experienced breeder in your area, or your veterinarian to see what worming medications and schedule are recommended there -- it can vary greatly from one place to another). They may need selenium shots, although I've been getting by without those even though we are in a selenium-deficient area by feeding a mineral that's high in selenium, and by feeding small amounts of sunflower seeds (which contain Vit. E; it has a similar effect to selenium in the body). You should give a CD&T shot yearly, with boosters for the kids (see your vet or nearby breeder again to see what is recommended for your area). Hooves need to be trimmed. I hate to see goats wearing 'elf shoes' because they haven't been trimmed regularly. I strongly recommend going to Hoegger Goat Supply and getting their most expensive set of hoof trimming shears. They aren't all that expensive, and are WELL worth the price. It's easiest to trim hooves when they are damp, so you may want to take the goats for a walk on a dewy morning, and do hooves when you get back. I can't do all mine on one day -- one goat a day is about all my back will stand. You'll need to be able to disbud kids that are born to your does -- sometimes you can find someone who will do it for you, but a few kids will pay for a disbudding iron. I hate doing it -- it stinks of burning hair and flesh, and the kids scream bloody murder -- but that's mostly because you are holding them down (I fold them up and sit/kneel on them, gently -- I used to have a kid-holding box that we built, but left it when I moved last time. Sitting on them actually works better than the box. Just be sure to use heavy leather gloves on your hands, so you don't burn yourself.) And you'll also need to castrate your buck kids -- elastrator bands work well, and the tool isn't very expensive. You can do it surgically -- it's not difficult, and probably better for the goat in the long run, but some people are a little squeamish about it.

You should keep a medicine cabinet for your goats, although hopefully you won't have to use the contents very often. For that, I'll direct you to the FiasCo Farm website. It's a good idea to keep most of that stuff on hand, because I guarantee you, when you DO need to use it, neither the vet's office nor the feed store (which usually has medical supplies) will be open!

As a new goat owner, you don't really want to have to keep a buck, unless you absolutely can't find a decent one within driving distance. Bucks are often more affectionate than does but can be difficult to handle if you don't know what you are doing. They will get pushy until you teach them that you are top goat (pecking order issues -- you've GOT to be the top goat, as they CAN hurt you, or a small child, otherwise). And when they are in rut, they STINK! If you have no choice, you can keep one, but make sure he's well-cared-for. Too many of them are neglected, don't get their hooves trimmed, their worm medicine, and so on.

It looks like I'm writing a book! I know I haven't covered everything, but need to go do chores, and get to bed, as I have to get up early.

Ask questions, and don't buy any goats until you've posted pictures (from all angles) or had an experienced breeder look the animals over. There are a lot of very bad goats out there, going cheap (usually, although I've seen some bad goats with very high price tags on them, too!); you don't want to get stuck with those. They cost just as much to keep as good ones do, and will have a lot more problems.

Kathleen

[momof23goats]

reading every thing you wrote, I would say you covered it pretty darn good Kathleen.
and she is right, post pictures of the goats you are thinking of buying. and have people that have raised goats for a few years look atthem. I also think udder placement is a very important thing. bad shaped udders or teats can be a huge pain. trust me. yo u want a good high udder, and a good teat to work with .

[goatlady]

How true, mom. I never buy a goat anymore without a "test" milking - I have a bucket in the car when I go check them out!

[Nicho1]

Thanks to all of you who have posted information. I had been mulling getting a goat or two. I currently have horses and have had a "pet cow." Milking was just a pleasure and with the current need to be prepared, I thought a goat may be the answer. Having never had them or researched them, I hadn't made any impulsive moves yet! Thankfully. With the info posted here, I'm thinking that goats may not be the answer. I knew they were pretty clever about getting out or jumping fences, etc. I think I'll go "back to the drawing board" to figure out things. This info has helped a lot.

[Little RedRidingHood]

I've had milk goats and cows. And, although I had a very sweet, easy to handle with a perfect udder Jersey cow ... I went back to having goats only.
The cow never gave me any real trouble but the poopy tail, and the constant mooing while in heat, and the cost of feeding her got to be more trouble than I wanted. Also, the kids helped do chores, and she could get upset by having someone else milk and become a real handfull for a 12 and 10 year old to control.
I love my LaMancha milk goats and can control them easily even with a bad back and arthritis. Since now it is only hubby and myself at home my two milkers give enough for the bottle kids and for housemilk. We get fresh milk every day, and the cost is less than store bought and much healthier for you.
Continue to do some research but don't give up on the goat idea yet. The usual breakdown goes five milk goats for one milk cow. Don't know if that still holds with costs the way they are now, and cows flooding the market due to the cost of a gallon of milk now.
Hope we haven't scared you totally away!

[Yarrow]

I won't sell goats to a pet owner, but if it's someone who is serious about learning how to take care of them, and is going to use them for what God made them for (supplementing the family food supply), then I think it's good to help those people get started.

The advice given above to get your facilities (fence, shelter, and so on) built BEFORE you get the goats is really important! It's so easy to get the critters, and then have to hussle around and try to get the shelter and the fencing taken care of -- been there, done that!

The first thing you need in order to raise goats is good fencing. They are probably the hardest animal to fence in (other than maybe bison and elephants!). Barbed wire isn't good for goats -- they are thin skinned, they WILL go through it, and they WILL get cut up in doing so. Woven wire field fencing will work IF you have a couple of HOT electric wires on stand-off insulators on the inside of their pen, so they can't stand on the woven wire and make it sag. (They like to stand up on stuff with their front feet, and can push even a good tight fence down, or over.) Chain link will work. Some people use no-climb horse fencing with electric wire and say that works well. I like cattle panels, although it would be expensive to fence an acre and a half with them. And they need posts in the middle (they are sixteen feet long; use a post every eight feet) as the goats will bow them out by standing up on them, at least where they can see people or something else they'd like to get to.

Gates need to be tight, also, and they need to have good latches that the goats can't open -- they are nearly as agile with their lips as a monkey with it's fingers.

Goats actually will eat grass -- if that's all they've got. They'll prefer a weedy pasture to a nice clean one, and a brushy one with young trees and blackberry bushes is even better. We need to know where you are before we can say how many goats your acre and a half will be able to support. In a humid climate, you might be able to pasture as many as nine on that land with good attention to pasture management; in the desert, you would do well to feed one. Using intensively managed grazing (multiple small paddocks and frequently moving the goats to fresh feed) can allow you to either stock more animals at least during the best growing time, or to cut some hay off it for the winter. Whatever you do, you need to carefully observe your animals, and if they start to get thin, reduce your stocking rate or supplement their feed. If they are over-fat, give them more exercise, or cut back on the feed a little bit. (Over-fat is no healthier than excessively thin.) You don't say if you want goats for meat or for milk; if for milk, I would suggest (if you are in the humid East) only getting a couple of does -- you can't keep a goat alone, as they are herd animals and will be very happy and very noisy! You should have plenty of pasture for them on half an acre or less, and could probably cut enough hay by hand for the winter off the un-used portion of your land. Goats who are fed year-round require about a ton of hay per year; reduce that amount by the percentage of the year yours will be on pasture. If you'll have to feed them for six months, then each will need half a ton of hay. Alfalfa or some other leguminous hay is best for milkers, as it's high in calcium to replace the calcium they are putting out in their milk. They'll also need some grain, depending on how much milk they are producing.

Goats need a LOOSE (NOT block) mineral salt that is high in copper. Don't feed them sheep mineral, which is way too low in copper (copper is toxic to sheep, essential to goats), and don't feed cattle supplements that have urea in them, as that can be toxic to goats. Horse mineral will be okay if you can't find goat mineral. You can buy or build a feeder for the mineral, which needs to be kept clean and dry. I built one of 4" PVC pipe; it lasted for about three years before the goats finally bashed it to pieces (and it was outside of their pen). So now I just hand feed mineral to them about every two or three days. It's good to hand-feed something, anyway, to keep them attached to you. Very handy, when they get out and are munching on the neighbor's roses or fruit trees, or walking on his new car, to be able to rattle a bucket of grain and have them come running!

They need a constant supply of CLEAN water -- this is hard to manage, as they will poop and pee in their water buckets without a thought (don't ever let anyone tell you that goats are intelligent; they are clever, but NOT intelligent!). It's best to have the water buckets on the outside of their fence, with a hole just big enough for them to stick their heads through to drink (don't get horned goats -- they'll get their heads stuck in the fence). You will have to keep a close eye on this arrangement if you have any goats small enough to fit through the hole in the fence -- if they are very small, they could land in the water bucket and drown. (I haven't lost any this way, but have had some very wet kids!) It is also best to have their hay feeder set up so they 1. can't get into it, as they'll soil the feed with manure on their hooves, and then won't eat it (or they'll poop and pee in the manger and won't eat the hay there); 2. can't poop and pee in the manger from outside of it; and 3. can't pull feed out and drop it on the floor of their pen. My goats can pull some feed out, and do drop it; I use this to my advantage, as bedding is as expensive as hay here, so the dropped hay is their bedding. But you may not want to use your hay supply for bedding! If you buy or borrow one of the goat care books you should find pictures and plans for a keyhole feeder. These work well, as long as kids can't climb into them (kids are amazing in the places they can go and the small holes they can get through), and as long as your goats don't have horns!

Unless you live in the Arctic, shelters do not have to close up tight or be insulated. Mine have weathered ten below in an agricultural shelter (hoop house with a heavy tarp on it) that is open at both ends. Hopefully I'll get the north end closed up again this year (the tarp door came unzipped, and I have to borrow a tall step-ladder to get it back together). But the goats were dry, and had deep bedding, which heats up. They had plenty of food and water, and they came through the winter just fine (though my two kids would have been kid-sickles by morning if I hadn't brought them indoors just as soon as they were born).

Goats need some regular care. They need to be wormed at least a couple of times a year (check with an experienced breeder in your area, or your veterinarian to see what worming medications and schedule are recommended there -- it can vary greatly from one place to another). They may need selenium shots, although I've been getting by without those even though we are in a selenium-deficient area by feeding a mineral that's high in selenium, and by feeding small amounts of sunflower seeds (which contain Vit. E; it has a similar effect to selenium in the body). You should give a CD&T shot yearly, with boosters for the kids (see your vet or nearby breeder again to see what is recommended for your area). Hooves need to be trimmed. I hate to see goats wearing 'elf shoes' because they haven't been trimmed regularly. I strongly recommend going to Hoegger Goat Supply and getting their most expensive set of hoof trimming shears. They aren't all that expensive, and are WELL worth the price. It's easiest to trim hooves when they are damp, so you may want to take the goats for a walk on a dewy morning, and do hooves when you get back. I can't do all mine on one day -- one goat a day is about all my back will stand. You'll need to be able to disbud kids that are born to your does -- sometimes you can find someone who will do it for you, but a few kids will pay for a disbudding iron. I hate doing it -- it stinks of burning hair and flesh, and the kids scream bloody murder -- but that's mostly because you are holding them down (I fold them up and sit/kneel on them, gently -- I used to have a kid-holding box that we built, but left it when I moved last time. Sitting on them actually works better than the box. Just be sure to use heavy leather gloves on your hands, so you don't burn yourself.) And you'll also need to castrate your buck kids -- elastrator bands work well, and the tool isn't very expensive. You can do it surgically -- it's not difficult, and probably better for the goat in the long run, but some people are a little squeamish about it.

You should keep a medicine cabinet for your goats, although hopefully you won't have to use the contents very often. For that, I'll direct you to the FiasCo Farm website. It's a good idea to keep most of that stuff on hand, because I guarantee you, when you DO need to use it, neither the vet's office nor the feed store (which usually has medical supplies) will be open!

As a new goat owner, you don't really want to have to keep a buck, unless you absolutely can't find a decent one within driving distance. Bucks are often more affectionate than does but can be difficult to handle if you don't know what you are doing. They will get pushy until you teach them that you are top goat (pecking order issues -- you've GOT to be the top goat, as they CAN hurt you, or a small child, otherwise). And when they are in rut, they STINK! If you have no choice, you can keep one, but make sure he's well-cared-for. Too many of them are neglected, don't get their hooves trimmed, their worm medicine, and so on.

It looks like I'm writing a book! I know I haven't covered everything, but need to go do chores, and get to bed, as I have to get up early.

Ask questions, and don't buy any goats until you've posted pictures (from all angles) or had an experienced breeder look the animals over. There are a lot of very bad goats out there, going cheap (usually, although I've seen some bad goats with very high price tags on them, too!); you don't want to get stuck with those. They cost just as much to keep as good ones do, and will have a lot more problems.

Kathleen

Kathleen fabulous info! When I got my first goats, I got them from a dairy and they were so kind to teach me everything I needed to learn. Hoof trimming, disbudding, shots ect. When getting your first goats it is valuable to have a good relationship with the previous owners.

Yarrow

[Freeholder]

It really does help to have good goat mentors close by -- we can try to help via the internet, but sometimes you just NEED a hand-on helper!

Nicho, if it helps any, I don't have pasture for my goats. They live in a 16' X 16' pen, with an additional 12' X 12' covered inside the ag. shelter. (I have a buck, pack wether, milker, yearling doe, and now a baby doe, so five goats altogether.) I used three cattle panels to build the pen, and lined the sides of the ag. shelter pen with field fencing just in case one of them eventually makes a hole in the tarp covering the shelter. The inside wall of their pen is also a piece of a cattle panel; the gate is a pallet, with a spring-loaded horse-sized hook and eye latch. I'm going to increase the size of their outside pen with another three or four cattle panels here shortly, but the inside is adequate, since I can't have more goats than I've got now. The only problem I've had is that once their bedding pack got deep, they started jumping out over the pallet gate, so I need to find something taller for the gate (and finish cleaning out the bedding pack!). They really aren't hard to keep; it's just a matter of knowing how to keep them where you want them, and keep them out of where you don't want them! I was raised with cows (Dad and Grandpa had a dairy farm in Alaska), and like them, but there are a lot of advantages to goats -- for one thing, I don't have to call the AI guy to come out to deal with breedings (might not be available someday). I have my own, very good quality, buck -- and while he's stinky when he's in rut, he's a sweetheart. I'd much rather handle him than a bull! I should replace him as he's the father of all my other goats, but am reluctant to get rid of him, as another buck might not be as easy to handle. Cows are easier to fence, and the cream rises on their milk, making it easier to make butter, but other than that, I really think goats win for most purposes. And I can take them camping with me (and I do!), and if we go hiking, they carry most of our gear!

Kathleen

[Freeholder]

Someone just posted this on HomesteadingToday, and I thought some of you might like to see it: http://greensboro.craigslist.org/grd/1097764758.html It's a log cabin for goats, on stilts! Cute!

Kathleen (No, I'm not going to build one, because I think my goats would use it as a springboard to escape from their pen! Now, if the pen was larger....)

[beelbill]

I am looking at some property that has a fenced area that would be great to keep goats. The fence is strong and would hold them in. The only problem is, it is gravel. I can get a tractor and scrape up the gravel so that there is just dirt. Then what should I do? Should I leave it dirt or should I put down sod or plant hay? It isn't a large area, so I will have to feed them no matter what I plant.

[beelbill]

How often do milk cows and milk goats have to be breed in order to continue producing milk?

[goatlady]

Putting down sod or planting hay won't do it for goats, guy. They will be MOST unhappy in an area like that. Goats and cows are "seasonal" breeders with goats comint into heat usually ariound the first hard, long cold spell in the fall and they will cycle every 28 days until bred. Gestation is 155 days so folks in the far north try to breed late in the season so the kids are not born in a blizzard! That being said, my French Alpine produces milk for several years on 1 year's breeding. Just depends on the animal and it's feed and environment I think.

[Yooper]

There are as many opinions on how to raise goats as there are goat owners themselves!
But nothing can beat finding someone who has some experience nearby you and who can mentor you.
That is how we got started and now how we help others get started as well. We are there for them 24/7 to assist in becoming happy, healthy goatkeepers. Instead of just giving up after a year or two with frustration, we want other folks to enjoy the venture and become successful. These animals have enriched our lives and I couldn't imagine living without them!
www.firstfruitsoberhasli.com (http://www.firstfruitsoberhasli.com)
for our story and some pictures.