Orphaned calf - help please?

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I know this isn't front page news, but if just for a moment, you could leave this up?

Our cows are "wild" in that they free range and don't do pens. A new mom calved; we spotted her calf when we went to feed, but new mom had blown her off. Two of our senior wonderful moms were surrounding the calf, licking it, etc, kind of distressed by the whole thing. It is cold and trying to snow.

The calf was by now too weak to stand; she is in front of the woodstove. Dh is going to the neighbor's to get colostrum - have no way to know if this calf got any or not. We haven't done this ever and don't know what to do past giving it the colostrum and seeing if it is alive by tomorrow. Any words of advice from people here with cows? Thanks so much in advance - other than the weakness, and the shivering (not now but when we first picked it up out of the field), the calf doesn't have any obvious defects or at least nothing that jumps out.

Are we going about this right? This is the 4th one born since the first of the year - two born to my seasoned good moms, and one born to a new mom who handled everything wonderfully. This other new mom is a failure - even when the two seasoned vets gathered around the calf, she was off eating and showed zero interest.

[Meemur]

Email Summerthyme. She might be in bed at this point, but she's one of the cow experts, and will probably be on tomorrow.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I will do that now -thanks so much.

I have had limited experience doing it once, but with a horse, and that was in a stall, so we got the foal up and nursing. This is probably not going to end as well, I think.

[The Flying Dutchman]

=


FWIW - get out a bottle w/a nipple on it. The calf needs to eat + stay warm. But first it needs nourishment most of all...


=

[chasingdreams]

anyway you can get calf manna? Maybe call a vet to see if they keep some on hand? I would also love on it (and pray)- I'm sure physical touch will help with the will to live.

[momof23goats]

I know this isn't front page news, but if just for a moment, you could leave this up?

Our cows are "wild" in that they free range and don't do pens. A new mom calved; we spotted her calf when we went to feed, but new mom had blown her off. Two of our senior wonderful moms were surrounding the calf, licking it, etc, kind of distressed by the whole thing. It is cold and trying to snow.

The calf was by now too weak to stand; she is in front of the woodstove. Dh is going to the neighbor's to get colostrum - have no way to know if this calf got any or not. We haven't done this ever and don't know what to do past giving it the colostrum and seeing if it is alive by tomorrow. Any words of advice from people here with cows? Thanks so much in advance - other than the weakness, and the shivering (not now but when we first picked it up out of the field), the calf doesn't have any obvious defects or at least nothing that jumps out.

Are we going about this right? This is the 4th one born since the first of the year - two born to my seasoned good moms, and one born to a new mom who handled everything wonderfully. This other new mom is a failure - even when the two seasoned vets gathered around the calf, she was off eating and showed zero interest.

How long hasit been? yo uhave about 12 hours if your lucky to get the colustrum in it. I would give it as much as you can. and get it warmed up.
then in about 4 hours, get up and feed it again. mix what ever colustrum you have left over with milk. put your finger in its mouth, until the colustrum gets there, put sugar or syrup on it. and see if the calf will suck. if it does your in good. If it doesn't, tickle it on the back next to the tail, on top of the back ,and take a warm wet cloth and wipe its butt with it. moms lick their butts, and tickle the tail , where it meets the back.
ok, if it doesn't suck then your going to have to tune it, and ifyou have never done this, go get the farmer, that your getting the colustrum from, if not done right, the lmilk could fill the lungs and kill the calf.

[packyderms_wife]

How long ago did the mother deliever? Do you have a barn with pens for the cows? If so coral herself and milk her and put the milk in a nursing bottle for the calf and feed it! Keep feeding it, if it survives and then put the calf in with her for nursing. Farmers used to do this all the time way back when.

Kimberly

[packyderms_wife]

Btw I've forgotten all of the technical terms as it's been almost 20 years since I've worked with dairy cattle :mrgreen: Was an interesting summer job though.

[Little RedRidingHood]

Your instincts are correct. Warm milk, warm shelter, and love. As long as she eats what she is given and has quit shivering she should be fine. Do you have a dry, wind tight shelter? Keeping her in the house for a long period of time will really be a huge problem in a few days. And, inside the house doesn't help her when the time comes to go back outside. I'd worry about lung troubles then.
I had to do what you're doing now BUT my heifer got the first milk and did well even though her mother was an idiot! She ran off and left the calf with a mare due to foal! Luckily, the mare was an older mare and had had lots of foals and worked cattle. She just let the calf follow her around until someone noticed the baby and removed her to the barn to stay. She grew into a beautiful longhorn-angus cross. Black with a white blanket on the rear and red, brown and black spots on the blanket! I always wished the appy foals would have turned out as pretty!
You're doing fine ... just keep it up. Remember ... small feedings every few hours are much better than one huge feeding two or three times a day while she's a newborn. First milk is also needed as soon as possible. Nice to have good neighbors huh?
Good luck!

[momof23goats]

I would feed the calf whole milk fro mthe store. calf replacement isn't that good.
there have been allot of problems with them . think china.
so like i said for now after the colustrum, give whole milk. the calf, will probably take close to a guart. so don't be surprised. but a pint would be good at this point in time. keep us posted.
a pint at a time is fine. vut every few hours. put her in a stall, with lots of straw. the calf will be fine.
do you have an older dow she could be in with that might nurse her? ifnot bottle feeding will be fine. I have raised allot of them on a bottle.

[Worm]

2 qt bottle of colostrum feed one tonight, one in the morning, one tomorrow afternoon. Go to local feed store and get some calf starter that you mix with water and start feeding once in the AM and once in the PM. If you have a squeeze chute, try putting the mom in the chute and bringing the calf to feed. I would try to get the mom to care for the calf if possible. Hope all turns out well.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

How long hasit been? yo uhave about 12 hours if your lucky to get the colustrum in it. I would give it as much as you can. and get it warmed up.
then in about 4 hours, get up and feed it again. mix what ever colustrum you have left over with milk. put your finger in its mouth, until the colustrum gets there, put sugar or syrup on it. and see if the calf will suck. if it does your in good. If it doesn't, tickle it on the back next to the tail, on top of the back ,and take a warm wet cloth and wipe its butt with it. moms lick their butts, and tickle the tail , where it meets the back.
ok, if it doesn't suck then your going to have to tune it, and ifyou have never done this, go get the farmer, that your getting the colustrum from, if not done right, the lmilk could fill the lungs and kill the calf.

Hi mom and thanks so much.

It is possible that it might be within the 12 hour window - enough that we are going to give it a try. She is getting warmer now, so that is good. I did make up a bed of straw in a stall (or I might make a bed in the garage), but she is too weak to stick back out there yet, I think. Need to get past this colostrum thing first.

Thanks for the tips - will post back on how it goes - I hear dh's truck pulling up so will see if he got it. As to the milk, just whole milk like what we drink?

[Old Girl on The Hill]

Thanks to all -must go see dh and get this started. will post more in a bit.

[Saminmo@hotmail.com]

while you have the calf in the house the bathtub makes cleanup easier especially if they have scours. you will thank me later

[momof23goats]

Hi mom and thanks so much.

It is possible that it might be within the 12 hour window - enough that we are going to give it a try. She is getting warmer now, so that is good. I did make up a bed of straw in a stall (or I might make a bed in the garage), but she is too weak to stick back out there yet, I think. Need to get past this colostrum thing first.

Thanks for the tips - will post back on how it goes - I hear dh's truck pulling up so will see if he got it. As to the milk, just whole milk like what we drink?
the garage might be good. closer to you, for feedings tonight. yes, get all the colostrum in the calf you can. then the dalf should perk up.
let me know how it does.

[skinner]

"tickle it on the back next to the tail, on top of the back ,and take a warm wet cloth and wipe its butt with it. moms lick their butts, and tickle the tail , where it meets the back."

Cow does this to stimulate bowel movement, so do deer. We've raised some of those too. This is very important.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

He came back with only enough to make a quart and 1/2 of the mix -said use whole bag to 1-1/2 quarts warm water (we are miles from everyone, so this will have to do). I am thinking a quart now and 1/2 in 4 hours? Or should I just use the whole thing right now and drive out tomorrow morning for more? I know how vital the darned colustrum is, it is everything, but this is it:( They also sent some calf milk, but I do have whole milk in the fridge

I just made a straw bed in the garage. Neighbors say temps are supposed to drop to 14 degrees tonight, but the garage is insulated, which is better than the barn.

Thanks to everyone, I am at peace that this will either work or not, and am grateful for the support.

[cracker]

OGOTH,

We go through this several times a year (it seems like anyway)

Please don't take any of this the wrong way.

1) Calm down.

2) Just feed it all to him now and go get more tomorrow AM. TRY to feed him standing up with his head extended up and out from his body. You might have to physically hold him up. This is the way he nurses mama and it enables the milk to go down the right hole.

3) Accept the fact that he probably won't make it. I know summerthyme will disagree, but she has the luxury of dairy cows and colostrum is readily availible. We don't. If you go ahead and accept that he might not make it, you'll deal with it better. I do.

4) Call around tomorrow to local dairies, etc. if any, and try to find someone that will sell/give you some colostrum. We have a local guy we get ours from. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Get some powdered milk replacer if possible ASAP in case he does make it. Stress, weather, etc. will at times negate all the colostrum in the world.

5) PUT THAT COW ON THE NEXT TRUCK TO THE AUCTION! If a cow won't be a mama, she hits the road. No second chances. THAT is her job. She did not do it. Sell her NOW before she does it again. That and being "wild" around here will get them put on the high road to McDonalds in a hurry.

6) good luck.


Hope I thought of everything.


C

[momof23goats]

He came back with only enough to make a quart and 1/2 of the mix -said use whole bag to 1-1/2 quarts warm water (we are miles from everyone, so this will have to do). I am thinking a quart now and 1/2 in 4 hours? Or should I just use the whole thing right now and drive out tomorrow morning for more? I know how vital the darned colustrum is, it is everything, but this is it:( They also sent some calf milk, but I do have whole milk in the fridge

I just made a straw bed in the garage. Neighbors say temps are supposed to drop to 14 degrees tonight, but the garage is insulated, which is better than the barn.

Thanks to everyone, I am at peace that this will either work or not, and am grateful for the support.

give it as much of it as it will drink. then mix any left into the milk.
and give to it in the night. let it drink all it wants. no fresh colustrum.
dang, well, you can try the powdered. hope it works. even goat would work. [yes that is what i had and used].
the garage wil lbe fine. if your worried, you can hang a heat lamp. I have had to many times. but not to low, don't want to burn it. or the bedding.
if you can get any fresh milk fro ma neighbor, or one of your cows would be the best thing to give it. if not then bought whole milk.
I shy away from milk replacements. really do. they aren't the best for sure.[think china].
I raised one on miced milk, goat milk, dried milk, and canned milk. that was the fattest calf, and boy did he grow. and fast. too.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

OGOTH,

We go through this several times a year (it seems like anyway)

Please don't take any of this the wrong way.

1) Calm down.

2) Just feed it all to him now and go get more tomorrow AM. TRY to feed him standing up with his head extended up and out from his body. You might have to physically hold him up. This is the way he nurses mama and it enables the milk to go down the right hole.

3) Accept the fact that he probably won't make it. I know summerthyme will disagree, but she has the luxury of dairy cows and colostrum is readily availible. We don't. If you go ahead and accept that he might not make it, you'll deal with it better. I do.

4) Call around tomorrow to local dairies, etc. if any, and try to find someone that will sell/give you some colostrum. We have a local guy we get ours from. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Get some powdered milk replacer if possible ASAP in case he does make it. Stress, weather, etc. will at times negate all the colostrum in the world.

5) PUT THAT COW ON THE NEXT TRUCK TO THE AUCTION! If a cow won't be a mama, she hits the road. No second chances. THAT is her job. She did not do it. Sell her NOW before she does it again. That and being "wild" around here will get them put on the high road to McDonalds in a hurry.

6) good luck.


Hope I thought of everything.


C

Thanks so much, you are right on every count. I felt inept for not having gone through a bad experience before, which meant I didn't have a game plan when time was of the essence. But I do learn from experience, whichever way it goes.

They all graze on hundreds of acres here - bull and a bunch of mommas. When we went with the truck to pick up the calf, they all ran a few hundred yards away, except for the one we call Grandma, who had been attending to this baby. She came back up within 10' and was pretty concerned. DH said when he drove back up with the colustrum, he stopped at the feeder, and they all gathered around the truck, Grandma first and right up front. I think Grandma who is in the process of weaning her young one but still has a full bag, wants to nurse this one if I could get it on its feet. But that has its own set of problems of course, with them being range cows (which is what I mean by wild). They don't get a lot of handling, but if someone has gone wrong, they come straight up to the house for "help" and are cooperative within limits.

Yes, momma will be in the freezer for this - I don't have the patience for mean bulls or failure moms, and we eat them instead of adding trouble to the herd. I don't know what happened but I cherish my steady no fuss older producers (and thank goodness for my new hereford month who was a champ from the get-go when she calved a few weeks ago), and this stunt disqualifies the new momma permanently.

Neighbor ranchers had a bottle so we got all but one cup of the colostrum replacement down. Will hit the road tomorrow for supplies if it lives thru the night. Didn't suck for the longest time, then did for awhile. Opened her eyes, held up her head on her own. She is on a straw bed in the garage for the night, will get up at 2 to feed her. Have accepted that she likely won't make it - I think I needed to see a better suck out of her and a more lively attitude (still weak), but when I went back out to the garage, she lifted her head and tried to get up a few times.

So for the moment, she tried, and so until she is dead, I'll try.

[momof23goats]

how much did you get down her? if she sucked that is good. I have had them pretty bad, and make it. she might just fool ya, and make it.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I just figured out how to pm you - earlier I couldn't figure out the pms or email (still don't get that). I don't know what is slower - me or my dial-up:)

We started with 1.5 quarts, and figure she got all but maybe a 1 or 1.5 cups, and I just put that in the fridge to later warm up and mix with some whole milk at 2 am. It was a good thing to see her suck, even though her suck kind of sucked, ie not as vigorous as I've seen my foals do in the past . She started after I spent time with her butt like you suggested, so that was pretty cool.

The only good news, besides that she isn't dead yet, is that all this has made me unable to read the threads about the North Korean missle launch/crisis, which I otherwise would have been reading carefully and probably fretting about.

Can't do a thing about that, so at least I have something to focus on that I might be able to do something about. Fingers are crossed, but it might just be wishful thinking.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

Okay, I just figured out the whole pm/email thing - that was so simple it is unbelievable I didn't get it.

Little Red Riding Hood - that is a good mare:) And yes, neighbors like this are great. It was 12 miles just to get to their ranch; town is well over an hour away. It is good to live remotely but it is challenging too, sometimes you just have to hope things go your way in a pinch.

Packyderm's wife - right about now, I am thinking that you were lucky you only did this for a summer:)

Saminmo - thank goodness you reminded me about scours. That I'd forgotten, and from now my foaling memories are kicking in, so she is in the garage.

Dutch and chasing dreams - bottle did work the best (we'd have made a hash of tubing her) and I hope at least if she doesn't make it, the physical touch makes her comfortable before she leaves.

Worm - cattle chute is coming this winter. We let these cows range freely, so I now realize the limitations when something goes wrong. I can live with it, although right now I don't like it much when I might not be able to fix everything.

Skinner - when I started that tickling, it was unreal to finally see some sucking. Until I read it here, I had no clue.

[bigd111]

Hey!
Cows get a big flood of hormones when they calve and sometimes are very hostile to the calf and to people. This usually passes in 2-3days. Keep the calf fed, a half gallon three times a day. Sometimes a teaspoon of vanilla on the calfs tail head will attract the cow to start paying attention to the calf. It helps if you can rub some on the cows nose. If you can milk out the cow, sometimes the smell from the cows milk after it goes through the calf will do the trick. If you have a pen where you can put them together this too will help, but stay awhile and make sure the cow is not going to beat on the calf.
Hobbles are helpful, and you can make a pair out of braided twine, make sure they are not too tight. They keep the cow from kicking the calf away.
I would buy a bag of milk replacer, as we use it all the time and though expensive does a good job.
The single best thing you can do for your cows is a chelated mineral package, yes it is expensive, but it will make your cows so much healthier and keeps the calves healthy too. We used to lose a lot of calves to scours, diptheria, pneumonia etc., until we switched to the chelated mineral. So far this year, no sickness whatsoever. Praise the Lord! The other advantage is the cows clean right after calving and aren't dragging around 75 pounds of afterbirth that gets stinky and will affect their rebreeding the next year.
Good luck and I hope this helps!

[Doc Savage]

my advice is any cow that is a problem goes to the sale barn. Any bad mom is at the top of the list.

[Shooting Star]

my advice is any cow that is a problem goes to the sale barn. Any bad mom is at the top of the list.

Agree - Bad moms get sold around here - We have 2 that we had to bottle feed - a lot of work.

[Limner]

OGOTH,


5) PUT THAT COW ON THE NEXT TRUCK TO THE AUCTION! If a cow won't be a mama, she hits the road. No second chances. THAT is her job. She did not do it. Sell her NOW before she does it again. That and being "wild" around here will get them put on the high road to McDonalds in a hurry.

6) good luck.


Hope I thought of everything.


C

I second this thought. Or take her to the butcher asap, and enjoy the chuck roasts. She's liable to make the same rotten choice next Spring, and you don't need the headache and heartache.:shock:

[Old Girl on The Hill]

hey bigd11 - thanks for those ideas and about the mineral supplement, I like finding new ways to improve herd health.

And doc and star - I am so mad I'd like to see the mom gone asap - raising cows is a bunch of work and I can do it and forgive a lot, but not a bad mom - this didn't have to happen. As it stands, the calf is not doing very well. I let dh sleep in - our big tractor tire went flat/had to buy new one, and in the meantime, we just took small bales to the cows. And he'd badly strained his back, so he can't work that big tire on just yet, and I am doing the small bales. His back was on the mend until he lifted that calf everywhere.

Gonna wake him soon, because I think we need to bring this to a close:( Dh had wanted to butcher the older moms, replacing them with some of these new moms (most people he talks to out here slaughter their bulls by 6 and their cows no later than 8 or so); I said nope, pick some of the others, because until you have a mom failure you'll never know how cool the old girls are, and here was the education on that.

[3-L's]

I'm on pins and needles following this story.

Is she still alive?

Gawd, I hope so.

Update us please.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I second this thought. Or take her to the butcher asap, and enjoy the chuck roasts. She's liable to make the same rotten choice next Spring, and you don't need the headache and heartache.:shock:

I am telling you, she just sucked at this. She wouldn't go near it, just hung out in the rest of the herd like, "oh, look did someone have a baby? Has nothing to do with me." Grandma (mother of the dumb mother) was honestly trying to get that calf to nurse off her bag, if she could get it standing - she didn't care whose it was, that was one worried old girl.

It was just callous, what this new mom did. I couldn't trust a cow ever that would act like what I saw.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I'm on pins and needles following this story.

Is she still alive?

Gawd, I hope so.

Update us please.

I think we were typing at the same time - no, news isn't good, alive but labored breathing. Going to wake dh and make a decision - I'd hoped it wasn't gonna turn out this way.

[Saminmo@hotmail.com]

It is possible Mom sensed somthing in the calf? because this is her first you just don't know if it was her or the calf

[3-L's]

I think we were typing at the same time - no, news isn't good, alive but labored breathing. Going to wake dh and make a decision - I'd hoped it wasn't gonna turn out this way.

So sorry to hear this.

Don't give up yet......tell her she can't go. :sad:

[3-L's]

It is possible Mom sensed somthing in the calf? because this is her first you just don't know if it was her or the calf


Yeah, that is what I thought too.

Life is tough some times and unless one is stone cold in their heart.......things like this just hurt. :sad:

[Old Girl on The Hill]

It is possible Mom sensed somthing in the calf? because this is her first you just don't know if it was her or the calf

Funny, I was just thinking about this. Only thing that puzzled me was that if this were the case, wouldn't my two experienced pros, Grandma and an older angus, have similarly let it alone to die? I mean of the two, Grandma was very persistant in trying to get it up on its feet to have a go at it. Couldn't decide if the new mom who apparently abandoned the calf might have known more/better than the old girls trying to help it up. It is a toss-up in my mind right now.

[Little RedRidingHood]

take all or any of the other mare's foals. She couldn't be in the same field or near the other mares while they foaled or until they bonded with their foals! She stole them! And, the foals loved to be near her. Once everyone had foaled and bonded I could put Katie back with the rest of them. She always had milk and if no foal that year she'd take a foal and feed it even if it nursed it's own mom also.
Your old cow maybe just another Katie but in cow form. I'd keep her as long as I can and make her the nurse cow for times like what you're going thru now.
I knew an old farmer that raised two or three calves a year off one old cow. He'd pick them up at the auction as day olds and put them on the cow three times a day. What a rodeo that was to watch! Bring the cow into the barn and open the door to the calf pen! She didn't mind at all!
I hope everything works out well for you and the calf.
Sorry to hear about your hubby's back. I have back trouble also so ... I hope he feels better soon!

[Old Girl on The Hill]

take all or any of the other mare's foals. She couldn't be in the same field or near the other mares while they foaled or until they bonded with their foals! She stole them! And, the foals loved to be near her. Once everyone had foaled and bonded I could put Katie back with the rest of them. She always had milk and if no foal that year she'd take a foal and feed it even if it nursed it's own mom also.
Your old cow maybe just another Katie but in cow form. I'd keep her as long as I can and make her the nurse cow for times like what you're going thru now.
I knew an old farmer that raised two or three calves a year off one old cow. He'd pick them up at the auction as day olds and put them on the cow three times a day. What a rodeo that was to watch! Bring the cow into the barn and open the door to the calf pen! She didn't mind at all!
I hope everything works out well for you and the calf.
Sorry to hear about your hubby's back. I have back trouble also so ... I hope he feels better soon!

Yes! I think Grandma is a Katie:) She had so much try in her for this calf, you'd have thought it was hers.

Seriously, when it is all going well and smoothly, horses and cattle just the most fun to watch - how they interact with each other could fill a book. They "talk" plenty, if you've watched them enough to learn their unspoken language. After years with horses at close range and handling, it surprised me that our "out on the range" herd of cows were equally communicative with me and dh. If they say something is wrong, they make a point of making sure they get up to the house here to make us do something about it. I didn't think that would happen unless you handled them frequently, like the horse, but they surely do.

I've had beloved pets of many years pass, and usually I am the one who does the choosing of the time and place, due to the progress of whatever old age disease process is taking them out. My best dog ever passed away this time last year, but as it turned out, the first one I've had who did so on her own (we and the vet thought she'd turned a corner on it, but it didn't work out that way). It is always hard to make the decision to end suffering, but from what I went through with my coolest dog, making that decision after a lifetime of memories and a special bond would have been heartbreaking. Not like it wasn't anyway, but I hate that part of having animals, as does everyone with a heart.

[Limner]

take all or any of the other mare's foals. She couldn't be in the same field or near the other mares while they foaled or until they bonded with their foals! She stole them! And, the foals loved to be near her. Once everyone had foaled and bonded I could put Katie back with the rest of them. She always had milk and if no foal that year she'd take a foal and feed it even if it nursed it's own mom also.
Your old cow maybe just another Katie but in cow form. I'd keep her as long as I can and make her the nurse cow for times like what you're going thru now.
I knew an old farmer that raised two or three calves a year off one old cow. He'd pick them up at the auction as day olds and put them on the cow three times a day. What a rodeo that was to watch! Bring the cow into the barn and open the door to the calf pen! She didn't mind at all!
I hope everything works out well for you and the calf.
Sorry to hear about your hubby's back. I have back trouble also so ... I hope he feels better soon!

We had an old Nubian doe like that, that we called "Old Mama". She was registered, and had fabulous bloodlines, but the gosh awefullest pendulous udder. But we liked to have her around, because she would mother all the babies, let them nurse and keep an eye on them. The cats would hop onto her back when it was muddy, so they didn't have to walk around in a mucky barn lot to get to the barn, just curl up on her broad old hips and enjoy the ride. :razz:

[packyderms_wife]

Packyderm's wife - right about now, I am thinking that you were lucky you only did this for a summer:)

.

Actually I worked two summers and part of one Fall quarter while I was in college, and it was fun, I'm the odd ball that enjoys milking cows and cleaning stalls.

K-

[momof23goats]

well, you could give her about 4cc of pen g, see if that would help . give it a couple of times a day. but I espect the powdered colostrum wasn't enough. the real thing is the best.
I hate to hear this. sad very sad. a shame really. but like i said, you can try the antibotics , and see if it will pull her out of it.might work, i have had them down like this, and some have nade it, just keep her head propped up so her rummin can work. you might have a shot of it.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

I am sad to say her suffering has reached a point where hope is too slim to outweigh what she has to go through, so dh is taking her out to end her her pain. If you could see what I do, you'd probably be doing the same. He is taking it pretty hard, probably because he has to end it and you don't try to save one just to end its life, but given what we have here, we became convinced that it is us who has to call the time of death on this one. The ending part he has done before; whenever the mobile slaughter truck comes, and the boys can't get a good shot, dh has done the deed for them, but he says this just feels different because the poor thing tried so hard, he helped, and it isn't going to get more than a day's worth of life out of the deal.

Thanks so much for the advice and support - I had some hope for awhile that this would turn the corner, and am glad that we tried to pull off even what turned out to be the impossible. I am just not feeling at all happy even doing what my gut is telling me has now become the best thing to do. I could never be a vet, ever, too soft about passings. Going to go start cleaning up the garage and have a good cry over it, well, have already started that last part. Sorry to be a bit emotional, I mean, its not like I don't kill them and eat them eventually, but babies seem to tug at you in a different way when they get a bad break just out of the starting gate like this:(

[Anne In TN]

Blessed be the dear little one. I am so sorry.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

thanks so much anne. Turned out that dh didn't have to do the final stroke - the "resting spot" we have is about 1/3 of a mile away, and when he went to open a gate there, he saw that she had just died on the way down. So she has relief and he does too.

[Emily]

thanks so much anne. Turned out that dh didn't have to do the final stroke - the "resting spot" we have is about 1/3 of a mile away, and when he went to open a gate there, he saw that she had just died on the way down. So she has relief and he does too.

Praying for you and your husband. What blessed hearts you have as you care for God's creatures and my prayers are that you are lifted up in peace and healing after the last 24 hours of struggle and loss.

[Freeholder]

I'm so sorry. I know what you mean about it somehow being harder when they haven't had a chance at life. I've got a perfectly healthy and really nice little buckling, one month old, that I'm probably going to have to butcher because I haven't found anyone who wants him for anything. One more try at the goat club meeting tomorrow, but since he's not registered, not much chance there, either. I can't keep him, and we need the milk he's drinking (nearly two quarts a day!). But I hate to do it, even though I know that's the fate of surplus bucklings.

One thing you might try to do for future calvings is see if you can find a dairy to buy some cow colostrum from, and keep it in the freezer. You'd have to replace it periodically because it won't keep forever, but if you ever have another incident like this you'd at least have the colostrum on hand. With goat kids, I would have been giving antibiotics right away, and also would have given Vitamin B shots -- you should be able to get the liquid Vitamin B at the feed store, I think. It seems to keep for quite a while, so wouldn't hurt to get a bottle and keep it on hand. And, you might have done all that and STILL lost the baby. Sometimes they just aren't meant to be. I'm glad your husband didn't have to do the deed...I wouldn't have been looking forward to that, either.

Kathleen

[Limner]

Awww, hun, I am soooo sorry! I'm glad that your Hubby didn't have to do the deed, either...God just kinda made the decision for you. Colostrum does freeze well, we've done that with a Mama goat that had plenty, and it's saved more than one baby. Get some and have iton hand, hopefully you won't have to use it.

[Kettle Farm]

girlfriend..am so sorry for your loss, really, so many of us here will do everything we can to save an animal, even if its going to end up in the freezer.
it sounds like possibly there may have been a problem with the calf that the mother knew? i have seen a few of our animals do the same thing. couple years ago, i went outside to see an old horse we had was down. by the time i went and got my amish neighbor to help me (dh at work) the poor old horse had already died. i was at least thankful because it didn't suffer, just laid down and said goodnight. my amish friend told me, "as long as you have animals, sooner or later you will have dead animals". he was so comforting in spite of the sadness.
the poeple here on the tree can and will help you incredibly! and we all feel your loss, as well.
heartfelt hugs to you, and your dh.

[3-L's]

So sorry........please know that we are with you in your grieving.

You did your very best and that is all even the angels would ask of you.

May you find peace soon and recover from the hurt.

Prayers and thoughts are with you and your family through this painful event.

[Yarrow]

I have a doe that is the worst mother ever. Her first time I gave her a break, the second time I gave her a break. This third time I will not. Why did I give her a chance? Well because she was young and then it was because she gives so much milk......... But you know, I would rather a doe take care of her babies and have a bit less milk then to deal with her.

Yarrow

[JDSeese]

Know that your story also touched the heart of a city boy who has never experienced the sorts of things described in this thread. I have a deeper appreciation for what you all go through and the work involved in tending cattle. Like you say, even though they might be bred for food, that doesn't mean we can't make their existence comfortable and enjoyable. Beautiful - :-)

[Old Girl on The Hill]

packyderm's wife - actually, except for the bad parts like this, I get a big kick out of mucking horse stalls too:) My rotor cuff/shoulder isn't happy about it, but you can't please every body part at this age. Did it as a kid, doing as an older person, and I know people who think it is just nuts to find cleaning up a barn to spic and span order to be better than therapy. Okay, and the younger generation's ipod invention has really set me to dancing out there sometimes:)

Emily - thanks so much for the kind words. This would be easier if we were the kind of people who didn't feel so bad about things like this, but otoh, being like this means we also know that life is short and needs to be lived as fully as you can live it. Sometimes we get caught up in stuff that really doesn't matter and forget, but we take the reminders like this very much to heart.

Freeholder and Limner - our vet was out of town, but he gave us the names of some local dairymen who might have some colostrum (nearest was over a hundred mile RT away, so wasn't possible to do last night). Great thought on freezing it - I have frozen our milk before. You know, my dad always had stuff like this on hand, I remember the penicillian like you and momof23goats mentioned. Lesson learned there. And Freeholder and others who have goats - is it primarily for the milk or do any of you also eat them?

Kettle Farm - I can't rule out that the calf had a problem we couldn't see. I have an aging group of horses, youngest 14, oldest two are hitting 17 this year. Love them all, but one is like my horse of a lifetime (17) - gonna hurt like crazy when he goes, hope like yours it is a passing on his own terms. I like what your amish neighbor said, going to pass that along to dh - it is just that simple, really, isn't it?

3-Ls - thank you so much for thinking of us. Whole thing has made us reflect a bit on life - yesterday, it was bitter cold, blowing light snow, but today, just a great day to be alive, warm and sunny - high desert extremes at their best. The calf's passing was a stark reminder of how unpredictable life is, just like this desert climate. It is probably a blessing to be reminded every now and then to cherish life instead of taking it as a given.

Yarrow - you have a kinder heart than me, because the only reason the failed new momma is still here is that a) there is a chance she knew something was wrong and let it die, so couldn't fault her for that, and b) for us and sale of beef, I needed to slaughter 2-3 this year, and since the other new mom performed perfectly, it makes sense to harvest her instead of some of the others. I admit I am packing some anger against the new mom, after seeing the other old girls trying to help and given the outcome:(

JDSeese - I appreciate your insight on that - in fact, we'd just been chewing the fat wondering what our city friends would be thinking of all this. I was raised in the country, dh was born in the midwest, but as a teen, lived in many places in the US and a bit of time overseas too (he still likes city life, so long as he is visiting and not living there:). We lived/worked in the city for many years, and then I guess you could say that the pull of our shared roots brought us back home to the land.

One of the very best things is that we've found the a good balance for us and for right now between how/what we consume and how it is produced/raised, which does make all the difference. The cows have their herd, their matings, their way of relating to each other, rocky outcrops to stare down from, favorite spots, no crowding, ranging not as far as some of the big big ranches out here, but definitely enough space to have lots of hidey holes away from the cougars and bear - they pretty much do their own thing, unless they need something from us or we need it from them. It has actually be a surprisingly great feeling to know that the beef I eat has had as whole and complete a life as it could have had. It is peaceful to see them at sunrise and sunset, wandering single file down from the high ridges to hit the hay feeders and the spring (or even funny to see them spot the tractor or atv coming with hay, and bam, they just try to catch up at almost a dead run! Cows can move much faster than you'd imagine:) . They don't appear to be holding any grudges over how the story ends, not as far as I can tell:)

[packyderms_wife]

Old Girl you really should get that chute put in this spring! I know it's not in your calender right now but you may end up needing it sooner than later. Chutes come in handy for a lot of things like medicating stubborn cattle etc. You can make a movable one with cattle gates.

Kimberly

[Old Girl on The Hill]

Old Girl you really should get that chute put in this spring! I know it's not in your calender right now but you may end up needing it sooner than later. Chutes come in handy for a lot of things like medicating stubborn cattle etc. You can make a movable one with cattle gates.

Kimberly

I know how much easier it would make everything, for sure. Wanted to do it last year, but are being careful with $$ due to the scary economic stuff. We've been cruising craigslist and plan to go to auctions in the spring, so it could happen sooner (fall is like a "no later than" date:)

We'd been in desperate need of another cattle guard. There is an easement that one of our neighbors use to access their land when visit it - I gather since it seems so remote out here to them, they can't comprehend how far cows will range (you'd think the poop and hoof prints back all along the fencelines and crossing in front of that gate would be a major clue). Nor can they comphrend that despite what seems like vast distances to them, I do walk/ride rotating portions of my fenceline pretty regularly, so I do know how frequently they are just listening to us complain and thinking "blah blah, like how will she ever know" as they leave it open.

You know, we've told them every time we catch it open that cows love following the fencelines. And if my cattle are following that fenceline on the day they leave the gate open, I don't want to have to saddle up and hunt them out over their 3000+ rocky, steep acres just due to them being inconsiderate. Decided it would be easier to put in some extra fencing and a cattle guard, but the price for steel had rocketed. Locally, $1200 for materials only - welding it together would almost double that! Dh did one years ago for the front gates, when the materials were a boatload less expensive, and welded it together no problem. This time, I ended up finding an old one in great shape on craigslist for $400. No more of their open gate worries! So hopefully, I will get the chute of my dreams there too:)

[cleosbcs]

I'm a little late to the conversation, but I have some experience doctoring calves. I would urge you to always have on hand both penicillin and a long-acting drug like LA200 (tetracycline), plus needles and syringes. Also, some of the dry colostrum packaged product and frozen, if you can keep it on hand.

You have approximately 12 hours from the birth of a calf to get colostrum into it. After that, the stomach lining stops absorbing the antibodies. A calf deprived of colostrum will be chronically ill.

A chilled calf will benefit from a thorough rubbing with a towel and a deep straw bed. Bringing them in the house can be stressful for them and the extreme difference in temperature from outside to inside not as beneficial as you would think. They mainly need a warm meal in their bellies and shelter from the wind and they can take subzero temps easily.

First calf heifers can be confused and frightened by the calf, and if this seems so, they will benefit from being in a corral together for a day or two. A squeeze chute is the best, but my DH also has built a calving chute with a self-catch head gate, panels, and a panel or gate that swings open on the side to be able to bring a calf up and help it nurse or milk the cow.

Cattle guards and chutes should be a deduction on your taxes. One calf or cow saved with antibiotics will pay for all the medicines and a chunk of the chute too.

I had one calf once that was too weak to stand at birth and his mom totally rejected him. We thought she had perhaps been eating lupine, as the calf's legs seemed crooked as well. I had to stomach tube him as he was too weak to suck (an excellent skill to learn from someone who really understands how to do it). I tubed him for three or four days, every day expecting him to die as he was too weak to stand. About the four day, his breathing became noisy and labored. I noticed it as I came into the barn about one a.m. to check heifers. Believe me, with the temperature about five degrees, I had no desire to walk back to the house and make up a syringe, but I did it, and again the next morning. This knocked out the pneumonia, he finally started sucking on his own, and on the fifth day he stood. We sold him when he reached 600 lbs.

The lesson to me in this was to not give up, keep trying all the tricks I'd learned from time, experience, training, and education (go to any and all seminars and short courses offered by ag schools, drug companies, or local extension. All info is good to have to make decisions.)

I was a city girl who eventually became assistant manager of a cattle operation. Learn, learn, learn all you can.
Just my opinion.

[Texaslil]

I am sad to say her suffering has reached a point where hope is too slim to outweigh what she has to go through, so dh is taking her out to end her her pain. If you could see what I do, you'd probably be doing the same. He is taking it pretty hard, probably because he has to end it and you don't try to save one just to end its life, but given what we have here, we became convinced that it is us who has to call the time of death on this one. The ending part he has done before; whenever the mobile slaughter truck comes, and the boys can't get a good shot, dh has done the deed for them, but he says this just feels different because the poor thing tried so hard, he helped, and it isn't going to get more than a day's worth of life out of the deal.

Thanks so much for the advice and support - I had some hope for awhile that this would turn the corner, and am glad that we tried to pull off even what turned out to be the impossible. I am just not feeling at all happy even doing what my gut is telling me has now become the best thing to do. I could never be a vet, ever, too soft about passings. Going to go start cleaning up the garage and have a good cry over it, well, have already started that last part. Sorry to be a bit emotional, I mean, its not like I don't kill them and eat them eventually, but babies seem to tug at you in a different way when they get a bad break just out of the starting gate like this:(
So sorry for your loss. I have a deep respect for those who try to preserve life, no matter what kind. We have lost so many beautiful creatures over the years. We have a pet cemetery here that is so extensive we have no idea where we might dig. I don't know if you have children, but your efforts pass along the hope of lives possibly saved. I try to think of all the creatures I've saved, not lost. Maybe the values we pass along to our children and others are the most important part of what we do.

Recently my daughter lost a cat that was 22. She did everything she could to save her, but in vain. She was about to move from San Antonio to Houston and she didn't want to bury her at home to soon be left behind. Her husband was out to sea, yet she drove 400 miles north with a small baby just ahead of an aproaching hurricane to bury her beloved cat on the ranch where she was raised. Take heart, Old Girl on the Hill, maybe we are doing something right after all in loving all this life.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

cleosbcs - thanks for all of that, as I need to get better prepared for any future events, and the only good that comes from a bad experience is any lessons I can learn from it.

Because we have winter births, for future reference - what temp extremes would cause the most problems, do you think? Here is what we had: brought the calf up in the truck cab, had rubbed it down with my fleece jacket, and left it there out of the wind while we called our vet (was out of town, but gave us pointers over the phone). Told him our best guesses re how long the calf had been down, the current temps, a wag about birth (which could have been off by as much as 24 hours, which obviously is a go/no go re the colustrum effectiveness) and about the extreme shivering. Told him planned to put in the house (temp. 66), then once the shivering stopped would put it either out to the garage in the straw or to the barn. He was fine with that, but who knows (we'd first called the closest vet, hoping to get him here for a farm call, but he didn't call back). I'd guess the calf was indoors no longer than 45 mins, give or take 10, before we put her in the garage.

The original plan was to get ahold of some vet in the am to come and take a look. When I went to bed at midnight, she was breathing normally, sleeping, actually held her head upright with eyes opened when I opened the door to the garage - it was great progress from where we'd started. When I got back up at two to fed a pint, things had completely changed for the worse, as in seizure like behavior. If I'd had an antibiotic on hand, I'd have tried it at the outset, but don't know that it would have acted fast enough. It will be here anyway in the future, just in case. We've had cows for the last 8 years - haven't had an illness or injury, or death until this one. Knock on wood, for the time is surely coming. We usually set up panels to corral them as needed; dh in the middle of building a more permanent pen for easier loading. We have a closed herd that we've slowly built up - our high desert can't support as many cows as the lush valley areas, so we balance the need for a smaller herd size against how much it costs for replacements (which are not so much here at the moment, should we ever need them) when considering costs for deductible items on a tax return. The three cattle guards we now have would have run $7200 bought completed from the local outfit, instead of $1200 "used", for example. If we did that for everything that is needed, it would add up to point of not making any sense to be doing this at all, when replacement cows are going for peanuts now. Probably is different in your area.

We've had the horses for the last 13 years, handled and used regularly, mostly users of vaccines, bute and banamine, one aborted foal, an ocd foal, cancerous eye, those kind of things. They mostly just bang themselves up and need cold hosing, stall rest, bute, hand walking, etc. Mainly time consuming theraputic stuff, after the vets did their best , ie like the ocd foal. Basically, a blow to the knee at 10 months, xrays picked up a chips and the ocd, but there was something about how it was all located that was not standard.

7 vets recommend euthansia, until the vet school prof remembered reading a paper by a CSU vet dealing with just this kind of surgery, and we got him to fly out here just because he wanted more experience with this - the only guy who had done this, and just a handful so far because most people chose to just euthanize, so not much to practice upon. All the new vet kids at the clinic actually took the day off to see his techniques. And it was worse than what showed on the xrays - he said he probably would have recommend euthanasia too had this shown up on the xrays - but that he did have luck with everything he could fix, and her being so young was in her favor - might fully recover, or might end up too lame to even be a pasture horse.

Full recovery took months of hand work, stall time and patience, because a young thing doesn't want to be cooped up, yet being so stoked at going for a walk that you do it on your hind legs (yeah, the repaired one) is just not gonna be allowed. Also at the time, both dh and the dog had blown their knees out, what a year. My foal is now a 14 year old mare who has never a lame step in her life, and is ridden on a regular basis. No arthritis even yet, though that has to be coming. But a daily reminder to me in the power of possibilites, even long shots.
,

[Old Girl on The Hill]

So sorry for your loss. I have a deep respect for those who try to preserve life, no matter what kind. We have lost so many beautiful creatures over the years. We have a pet cemetery here that is so extensive we have no idea where we might dig. I don't know if you have children, but your efforts pass along the hope of lives possibly saved. I try to think of all the creatures I've saved, not lost. Maybe the values we pass along to our children and others are the most important part of what we do.

Recently my daughter lost a cat that was 22. She did everything she could to save her, but in vain. She was about to move from San Antonio to Houston and she didn't want to bury her at home to soon be left behind. Her husband was out to sea, yet she drove 400 miles north with a small baby just ahead of an aproaching hurricane to bury her beloved cat on the ranch where she was raised. Take heart, Old Girl on the Hill, maybe we are doing something right after all in loving all this life.

Thanks so much for that, ie the thought that we should remember the saved ones, because they are the special blessings - sometimes, things are just not going to go like we'd hope for them to go. I have ashes that will be going into a pet cemetary here at the ranch, as I think we are settled here for life.

That is just the best thing that your daughter did, really and truly, it made my eyes tear up. Tell I think I admire her for doing that. When you choose to do something like that, it says that your heart and priorities are in the right place by my book; she is lucky to feel this deeply about animals and other things, some people don't have that ability and from what I've seen, their lives are not as rich in the same way.

I have a 19 year old cat, just diagnosed with a thyroid condition which we are treating, but while the vets can't find the reason, there is something else clearly wrong that surfaces now and then. So we making sure each of her last days here are just how she wants them to be -we toss her fav bacon at breakfast, give her a set of steps so she can get up on the bed, and build a warm fire as she demands. Sometimes the hardest thing is remembering the lesson they teach, that the present is really the most important thing, and all we have for sure.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

[quote=Little RedRidingHood;50843
Sorry to hear about your hubby's back. I have back trouble also so ... I hope he feels better soon![/quote]

Oh, something I forgot to mention - I don't know what causes your back troubles, but in case it could be of use: my mom got this stuff from her chiropracter called Glenelgesic (think I am spelling that wrong:). It is icy hot on steriods (there used to be a generic of this, but it isn't worth paying a dime for). If dh's back is at the "it can still be saved" point, we steam him in a bath or shower to open his pores, dry him off, rub this on vigourously, and then wait for his screaming to subside, lol. Under the right circumstances it can really help cut the recovery time (until this, I'd never found a cream worth its price).

Only place I've ever found it online is at a body building website. Just wanted to throw that out there, in case it could be of use ever!

[Sarah]

My prayers are with you-we "rescued" two foals that were originally going to slaughter to have their hides made into purses. Both were bucket foals, we were unsure if either received colostrum. Both were sick, both ended up in the house on quilts with iv fluids and iv antibiotics. One survived, the other we had to drive (sitting in my lap in the front seat of our pickup truck feeding it pedialyte by bottle) from WV to KY to Rood Riddle Vet Hospital where it was admitted to the NICU for horses. It had a really bad pneumonia and ended up into what is similar to ARDS in humans and couldn't pull through. We were devastated. I know they thought we were crazy, but my husband drove back to KY to we could bury her on the farm.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

My prayers are with you-we "rescued" two foals that were originally going to slaughter to have their hides made into purses. Both were bucket foals, we were unsure if either received colostrum. Both were sick, both ended up in the house on quilts with iv fluids and iv antibiotics. One survived, the other we had to drive (sitting in my lap in the front seat of our pickup truck feeding it pedialyte by bottle) from WV to KY to Rood Riddle Vet Hospital where it was admitted to the NICU for horses. It had a really bad pneumonia and ended up into what is similar to ARDS in humans and couldn't pull through. We were devastated. I know they thought we were crazy, but my husband drove back to KY to we could bury her on the farm.

That 's one of the good things on a thread like this even when it doesn't end well - you at least find kindred spirits who don't think you're crazy for trying, or for showing some respect for both life and the death process, as you two did for the foal that didn't make it. If you took her to Rood Riddle, you gave her the best chance possible.

I hadn't heard of foals hides being used for purses so I just did a search that was an eye opener. Were yours what they call "nurse mare foals?" I am reading a blog about it that is making me very sad - blogger was saying some of the separated foals are only 4 days old. I know people with high dollar show horses and racing horses who'd do this in a heartbeat just to be practical about things. Well, yes, you need to be practical, but if you go too far, you don't have a heart, and I don't see a heart in this. I can't believe there isn't some other solution for the "expensive" foal that isn't at the "expense" of the nurse mare foals.

[breezy]

I'm sorry Old Girl. God bless you both.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

Thanks Breezy. At least I've learned some tricks of the trade that I can use if it happens again, and maybe influence a better outcome.

[Old Girl on The Hill]

Last post on this one - I hadn't been to the Barn and Stable forum yet until this thread was moved here - I am going to not only explore this part of the forum, but all the others I've missed by mostly staying on the CofC page. There had been so much to read there, I rarely got any farther.

I have a lot of catching up to do with my reading now....