subsistance poultry

[Thursday]

I am new to TOL and have enjoyed learning from everyone and wondered what I could contribute, well here goes. Manny or you are interested in chickens as a low cost food source in hard times, this is good as far as it goes but I think those who depend on chickens in a true survival situation will be in for an unpleasant surprise. Chickens are a tropical bird with rapid metabolisms, and short legs which do not navigate snow well. None of this is a problem if you have a ready supply of cheep grain, and electricity for artificial light.
However if electricity is unavailable and grain has to be planted, harvested and threshed with hand tools (If you have the animals, tools and skill to farm with draft animals, you already know more than I could teach you) grain will become too valuable to feed to poultry. As a side note a hen eats about 100 pounds of grain a year, 50 if she is allowed to roam free. I don't remember the exact number but I think it takes about 50 pounds to feed her from hatch until she starts laying, and about the same to fatten roosters to eating.
A better choice (at least in temperate climates) might be turkeys. Turkeys handle winter well and can walk through snow better with their longer legs. They are more aggressive foragers than chickens and will roam widely to find food. They can be fenced easily. Electric fence works, woven wire is better, also clip the feathers on one wing. They are also easy to herd and can be driven on foot long distances if need be. In the old days when turkeys were driven to the cities to sell at holiday markets the farmers would tie small cloth or leather bags on the turkeys feet. These "shoes" kept them from going lame walking on the icy dirt roads. Goose feet would be coated with tar for the same reason.
Much has been written about the vulnerability of turkeys to disease. In six years of growing turkeys (40-60 a year) I have had very little trouble with disease, less in fact than I have with my chickens. When full grown they are less vulnerable to predators (especially Hawks and owls) than chickens. And contrary to myth they will not drown themselves looking at the rain fall.
On the down side they cost more to buy than chickens and will not lay as many eggs. Do not get the "broad breasted" varieties either bronze or white as they cannot mate and must be AIed to reproduce.
Entire books can and have been written on this subject, but maybe this brief over simplification will get someone started on the right track.

[AngelDance]

Chickens go to college to get more knowledge,
Turkeys go to Jupiter to get more stupid-er.

nuff said

Angel

[goatlady]

I guess it's a matter of personal experience. I had buff Orphingtons for layers and meat for 17 years in Western SD at 6000 fot elevation and my girls could plow through a foot of snow from the hen house to the goat barn with no problems all winter long. They had a wonderful time all day long scratching and foraging in the goat bedding keeping the parasites well under control. I would feed a cup or so of grain each evening in their coop just to make sure they came home for protection every night. I also have raised turkeys and they are a real pain especially that last tom I had who decided I was an intruder in the pasture and was trying to attack me every time I was working with the goats! He was delicious! In my experience turkeys eat FAR more grain than a chicken ever will. But, again, that's my experiences over the years. and in the snowy winters the turkeys would NOT leave their area in the barn for anything!

[Summerthyme]

I have both chickens and turkeys. The chickens are MUCH more reliable in all ways,.. egg production, hatch percentage, and HEALTH. I *have* managed to cure blackhead in my turkeys, which some say is "impossible", but I'm really not all that impressed with them as a "survival" bird. There are plenty of wild turkeys around, but although I have heirloom breeds, the wild ones are truly almost a different species, in terms of survival instincts, and ability to forage.

For a TRUE "subsistance" bird, I'd suggest geese instead. They truly can forage for almost their entire diet in three seasons, and ours lived outdoors even in bitter winter (although one developed frostbite of a foot and was permanently lame). They are fierce protectors of their goslings, and can be "trained" to bring them inside a barn at night, for predators which aren't all that fazed by their act- a pair of foxes will work in concert to distract the gander and goose while the second member grabs a gosling or two.

We don't have geese at this time... their biggest drawback is the manure which is EVERYWHERE... I'd probably pasture them inside a fence of some kind if I raised them again. I do want to try to get some Beltsville Whites (a small, fairly broadbreasted turkey breed which CAN breed naturally, and are small enough to stay sound as adults) at some point, but this year money is a huge problem, so I'll stick with the trio of Bourbon Reds I have (one setting on a full nest at the moment). But I'll keep my chickens, thank you very much... we can raise enough corn and soy in a smallish area (1/8 acre or so) to feed our laying flock without a lot of problem,

Summerthyme

[orion commander]

56 pounds of corn is a bushel. 2 or 4 bushels does't sound like that much over the life of a chicken considering eggs and meat. Course I have never had chickens so what do I know?

OC

[Thursday]

Far be it from to despariage the noble chicken. As goatlady says it's a matter of personal experience we grow 300 to 1000 cornish cross chickens a year (definetly not a survival breed) and 30 to 50 brown egg layers, we have kept most of the common varieties and have found that our turkeys are far more self-suficent. But we do not keep any of our poultry in a "barn yard" but provide them portable shelters in fenced fields in this setting the turkeys far out shine the chickens, but as I said chickens have thier advantages or we would not keep both.
Also for orion commander, four bushels of corn dosen't sound like much until you consider that normal preindustrial yeald for corn in the mid-west ranged between 35 and 50 bushels per acer. That means cultivating an acer of corn for every 8 to 13 hens. A lot of hand work.

[goatlady]

You must grow for Ty or PP?? I can't imagine those amounts of birds - yee gads! I have all I can handle raising 25 game hens once in a while and since I can butcher and process only 5 per day by my lonesome, by that 5th day I always miss a few. One year I missed 3, left them to run with the regular hens and the 2 hens started laying, the rooster was crowing, and when I butchered them at 18 months or so the smallest weighed in at 12 pounds dressed! I started out with those Giant White turneys but when I had to quarter the finished bird to get them in the oven (smallest was 42#) I switched to the Bronze and had that nasty tom and he weighed in at 3o something pounds, so I'd like to try the Royal Palms - I hear tell they stay smaller?? But my gosh, they are getting spendy for poults.

[Summerthyme]

Goatlady... don't bother raising Royal Palms for meat turkeys... seriously. They really aren't worth it. I got a few in an "heirloom assortment" once, and they dressed at about EIGHT pounds. A scrawny eight pounds, at that! Look into "Beltsville whites" or "midget whites"... they are broadbreasted, but not to the point of being impossible to breed naturally. (note, I haven't raised them, so can't speak to their eating qualities, but they were developed at the Beltsville Experiment Station as a small, good quality eating turkey, so I have to figure they're MUCH better than the Royal Palms. Interestingly, I read a website (which was selling poults) about various heirloom breeds, and they specifically said the "Royal Palms are NOT a good eating bird". They sure are pretty birds, though!

I got some "slow white broilers" from Welp Hatchery, and I really like them... unfortunately, I lost the rooster I saved (plus three pullets) from the batch, because I was planning on breeding them to see if I could have a "self sustaining" strain. The hens are lovely (even for white chickens- I do NOT generally like white chickens, but these are pretty birds), started laying EARLIER than any of the egg laying hens I raised with them, and two of the three have gone broody and are setting! They are perfectly sound, as was the rooster- a predator of some type got him early this spring.

They aren't as huge as the Welp strain of CornishX birds, but at 9 weeks, they did dress out to a nice, 5# bird. The CornishX birds from Welp, OTOH, were dressing 5# at 6-7 weeks, and I had three 10 1/2# roasters at 14 WEEKS (not months!) Amazing birds, and still very tender and very tasty at that size. But there is no way you could breed them, I don't think!

We had a really nice Naragansett tom turkey, but when I had him free ranging a couple years ago (to keep him from harassing the setting hens) our milk truck driver was afraid of him, and started kicking stones at him to keep him away. It turned a nice, protective, but respectful bird into a dangerous terror. I was NOT impressed. I got my revenge on the moronic driver a bit... our cattle trucker was watching one day and saw the guy come flying out of the milk house, with a very pissed off turkey right behind him, and he leaped into the passenger door of his truck to escape. Naturally, the cattle hauler spread that story EVERYWHERE- so the milk truck driver now has a reputation of being afraid of poultry! LOL! Serves him right... if he'd just ignored the bird's display, I'd still have a nice breeding bird.

Summerthyme

[Southwind]

I agree with Summerthyme about Royal Palms. The ones I had barely got bigger than my RIR Roos. I did have one hen who was a lovely 'singer' though. Only one I ever had who would sing. Lost her to a frickin coon.

[momof23goats]

I raise bronze for meat, [turkey] and also giant whites. not royal palms, right now i have 2 little wild turkey babies in my brooder, they are just a chirping away happy as can be, they were found on the road crying, looks like brother and sister took a direct hit. mama, and the rest were long gone.
I will raise them up, and dress them out this fall, and use them for soup. royal palms, are like wild turkeys, no meat on them to speak of, small breasts.
I want big birds. huge birds.
I will keep my hens, they plow right threw the snow every winter. and I neverl lose them either, chickens, make it every winter, no problem.

"contrary to myth they will not drown themselves looking at the rain fall." I am so sorry Thursday, but I have probably 30 baby turkeys, and I watched as abotu 15 of them were looking up wiht mouths open, and drowned. that is the truth .I had t orun out in a thunder storm, to save the rest of them. Turkeys, are dumb as can be. Chickens aren't much better, but turkeys are really dumb.

[patticakes]

oh my gosh! i am SO out of my league reading all of this. scottykarate and i want to get some chickens....eventually. we really don't have room in the yard right now.

if any of you could suggest a chicken breed for starters, what would it be?

i should start another thread called "chickens for dummys" - but will when we get more serious about it.

i love listening to you guys talk about this!

[Southwind]

oh my gosh! i am SO out of my league reading all of this. scottykarate and i want to get some chickens....eventually. we really don't have room in the yard right now.

if any of you could suggest a chicken breed for starters, what would it be?

i should start another thread called "chickens for dummys" - but will when we get more serious about it.

i love listening to you guys talk about this!

Do you want primarily eggs, or meat, or both?

[patticakes]

Do you want primarily eggs, or meat, or both?

one of each please....and, yes, i'd like fries with that.

[goatlady]

Thanks for the head's up, ladies, on the Royal Palms. I do want a smaller bird but not THAT small! 10-15 pounders would do me just fine both for butchering and eating. pattiecakes!! ALWAYS mashed taters and gravey with chicken, gal. LOL.

[goatlady]

ST, I know I'm tired, but your post has confused me. You say you were saving a few hens and a rooster of the slow whites to see if you could raise a self-sustaining batch then in the next paragraph you say you don't think one could breed them??? which is is. I know the CornishX are supposed to be sterile, are the slow whites sterile also? They sure look interesting, as does that Welp Hatchery site, but my, my spendy, spendy even if their prices include shipping!

[Summerthyme]

Sorry for any confusion. The "Slow White Broilers" from Welps are the ones I'm trying to breed... except I'm going to have to order another batch and this time save TWO cockerels! Their "CornishX" birds are a different strain, and there is NO way they'd breed... I was very much impressed that they did all manage to stay sound (didn't have a slipped tendon in the bunch) up to that amazing weight. But I doubt they'd handle getting much larger than they were at 12 weeks without having problems.

Welp's prices have gone up quite a bit, but McMurrays are worse! Their Cornish Roasters (which are a hybrid and won't breed true) are $1.87 for STRAIGHT RUN (in numbers under 25.. but even buying a hundred birds only gets it down to $1.50.. and that's PLUS postage!! ACK!) I've bought their "barbeque special" several times (it's either Cornish Roasters or CornishX or both, and more than once, I've gotten all pullets), and even that is up to $1.26 per bird, in large (100) lots... plus postage!

Which is why I want to try to breed my own, if I can find some breeding stock which can reproduce.

Right now, I'm setting a bunch of eggs which are either Maran/"slow broiler" crosses or purebred Marans... I've got a total of 16 eggs under two hens. My Maran rooster somehow got crippled (sort of funny... the Cornish roo was perfectly sound until the fox or coyote got him, but the Maran roo somehow slipped tendons over the winter!), and I'm HOPING he managed to breed the hens and fertilize the eggs! The Maran eggs are too dark brown to candle effectively, so I just have to wait and see..

Patticakes... for the hands-down "easiest", trouble free chickens, consider Buff Orpintons. They are a medium sized, golden bird who lay well in heat or cold. The roosters are generally gentle, and the hens will go broody and raise their own chicks. The only problem I had with them is several of them were egg eaters... that's not terribly unusual for chickens, but it's sort of funny that EVERY time I had an egg eating chicken, it was a Buff Orp. I just lost my last BO hen to the same predator that got the roo (no longer a problem now that warm weather has arrived- Bandit insists on guarding outside all night). But they are a nice breed for beginners...

Summerthyme

[goatlady]

Gtocha' ST. I have been wanting to get serious about Home breeding without an incubator. I didn't even LOOK at McMurrays this year - last year's prices were bad enough and even the local chicks were running $2.50 EACH! I'm down to a FINE Buff roo, 1 Buff hen, and a gift RIR both the hens are still laying nicely after 3 years = 2 eggs daily and the Roo is doing his usual morning hip-hop dance with both girls, but the Buff just isn't interested in brooding this year! Patticakes, I, as usual, second summerthyme's suggestion on Buff Orphs! I have been keeping chickens for 20 years now and have tried about every breed and the Buffs are far superior for the small homesteader. Nothing seems to rile them up, they stay calm and collected except when a varmit gets in the coop, so you KNOW when you hear a ruckus, get your gun and get out there!

[just living]

When does "the hens will go broody and raise their own chicks" happen. Is there a certain age? Does it just depend on the hen? I have had many hens over the last 4 years and I have never had a hen go broody. What am I doing wrong? I assume you have to leave all eggs that are laid...how many will they lay before setting on them?

Thanks!!

[Summerthyme]

It's very much an individual thing, and fewer and fewer of the breeds have much broodiness left. It's rare for a pullet to go broody, although they will occasionally try it.

It doesn't really seem to make any difference as far as leaving eggs in, collecting them daily, or even more than once a day. A determined hen WILL set on an empty nest for weeks. You can TRY to encourage your hens to set by providing well bedded nesting areas in a dark corner (my turkey hens love to nest under a piece of plywood I lean against the wall, creating a "lean to" area).

What breed(s) do you have? I've had many over the years- Brown Leghorns, Rhode Island Reds, various colored Wyandottes, Black Australorps, Buff Orpingtons, Americanas, Cuckoo Marans, as well as a bunch of different bantams. The only reliable setters were the bantams (they'd even attempt to raise chicks in the dead of winter). Of the others, the Buffs were the ones I had set most often. Right now, two of my Maran hens are setting, along with a Cornish (slow-broiler) hen. All but one are setting in the nest boxes, but I have 14 nest boxes for 20 hens, so it's not a big problem. I marked the eggs they're setting on, and I gently check them once a day and remove any "unmarked"- hence, freshly laid- eggs. If you have your hens setting where other hens are still laying, if you don't do this, they'll end up with huge clutch of mixed-age eggs, and none will hatch (plus, they'll end up breaking some and those will contaminate the rest).

The one Maran hen who insisted on setting on the floor also keeps losing all her eggs... so I've given up on her, and will move her to a "breaking cage" to try to jolt her back into laying.

For folks who really need to hatch eggs, a few Silkie bantams are a very valuable investment. I had one who I used to set three turkey eggs under... it was all she could do to cover them, but she'd dutifully hatch out three turkey poults, and by the time they were 10 days old, they'd lift her off the ground when they tried to shelter under her wings! I've read they even use them in zoos to hatch out the exotic birds...

Summerthyme

[AngelDance]

As ST said, most breeds have had the "broodiness" bred out of them in favor of continuous egg production. Silkies are wonderful brooders, as are cochins (cochin roosters can be nasty as they have terminal cases of "short man" syndrome lol).

My buff orps and gold laced wyandottes have proven to be the most reliable brooders. I have one orp setting a clutch of 14 eggs now. They should hatch in the next week. They are also great mothers, in my experience. Roos are for the pot, pullets to replace older hens, also for the pot.

If you want to raise chooks for meat as well as eggs in a self sustaining fashion, look to the dual purpose birds, unless you can segregate birds breeding of your own cornish crosses.

See the thread Shewoff started for more on chooks.
http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/showthread.php?t=61235

Angel

[patticakes]

Patticakes... for the hands-down "easiest", trouble free chickens, consider Buff Orpintons. They are a medium sized, golden bird who lay well in heat or cold. The roosters are generally gentle, and the hens will go broody and raise their own chicks. The only problem I had with them is several of them were egg eaters... that's not terribly unusual for chickens, but it's sort of funny that EVERY time I had an egg eating chicken, it was a Buff Orp. I just lost my last BO hen to the same predator that got the roo (no longer a problem now that warm weather has arrived- Bandit insists on guarding outside all night). But they are a nice breed for beginners...

Summerthyme

Patticakes, I, as usual, second summerthyme's suggestion on Buff Orphs! I have been keeping chickens for 20 years now and have tried about every breed and the Buffs are far superior for the small homesteader. Nothing seems to rile them up, they stay calm and collected except when a varmit gets in the coop, so you KNOW when you hear a ruckus, get your gun and get out there!

thank you ladies. i'm printing this off so that when we get serious about things, i'll already have Step 1 covered.

[Saminmo@hotmail.com]

I have raised lots of different breeds my DD was a breeder for cackle, I currently have barred rocks to placate Woody but the most self sufficient well rounded birds I have ever raised were Delaware. They are white large chickens brown egg layers will find their own food but if you don't give them a House at night you will have to hunt for eggs out of 10 hens 2 or 3 would be broody by year 2. This is the only breed that I have observed the rooster giving chicks a ride on his back. If any one knows where I Can get Banks that breed true without green legs please PM me

[Thursday]

Wow I never thought this post would ruffle so many feathers! Maybe next time I'll post "seven reasons why cows are superior to goats"8) Please I'm only kidding.
First all of my birds are sold from the farm to private individuals. Yes butchering that many birds is a lot of work, but we can usually kill, scald, pick and eviscerate about 50 birds an hour with a four person crew.
We don't get rich but we pay for the bird we eat and have some pocket money at the end of the year to boot. We use the methods Joel Salatin outlines in his book Pastured Poultry Profits, I highly recommend it to anyone interested in poultry. the American Pastured Poultry Producers Association web site is also good.
Dear Momof23goats, any baby poultry left out in the rain are likely to die, are you sure they drowned?
Finally about the reproduction of broad-breasted poultry I have been told, but don't know from first-hand experience that breeding stock can be put on a restricted diet to slow their growth and prevent them from developing the carcass that prevents breeding.
For those who like the cornish cross eat ability but want something they can hatch at home look into the Corndel Cross developed by Tim Shell.
Good discussions, God bless.

[goatlady]

No ruffled feather here, Thursday. LOL. and we've alread had the discussion of cow versus goats! It was a draw on that one. All depends on one's set-up and needs and location. Just like your situation - your poultry raising is based on a business model and no doubt it works well for you. I'm a single, little, old, grey-haired lady and butchering Cornish X takes me hours from pen to can/freezer. I also take me days to eat a fat hen, turkeys are overwheming which is why I'm looking for a small, meaty bread for the homestead. It's nice everybody is different with different outlooks, makes life interesting!

Just did a quick search and found this from October 2006 - do you have more recent information??

"Tim Shell isn't doing that anymore. He moved to Japan with his family to be missionaries. He gave all his breeding stock to 4 breeding companies, but to my knowledge none are doing anything with them anymore. The only one I know of that might have any is Tom Delahanty in New Mexico. I'm still trying to get in touch with him with no luck."

[Stanb999]

Hey,
We had Cornish Crosses that bred. The winter before last we kept 3 ladies and a rooster. The ladies were out of laziness and the rooster was smallish at chopping time. Anyway. the ladies laid nice big brown eggs and we hatched 9 out of the 16 we tried. About 50%. The thing was that the big girls were about useless after that. They look awful for several months. Then when we finally did do the deed they were literally full of fat. Nasty. But the new chicks were nice size in a few short months and were very meaty. Like their parents.
So I figure even in a meat bird....If their is the will, there is a way. ;-)


P.S. For cheap chicks, Check out www.moyerschicks.com in PA. their prices are really good.

Right now they have them at
$1.75 for less than 20
$1.65 for 20-49
$1.15 for 50-99 <<<< We get 51 for a full freezer.


One other thing about their birds. If you let them they will grow to epic size. I've had them get to 14LBS dressed. Just huge. But mostly we slaughter them at between 8-10LBS and they are like 14-15 weeks.

[LittleRedHen]

Turkeys weren't worth raising where we used to live because there were so many wild turkeys. They kept raiding my friend's birdseed. They were so tame, you could sneak up on a herd of them and grab one by the hind leg. One thing I like about turkeys is you can paint the tail feathers with wildlife scenes or deer or wolves or eagles and sell them as art at fairs, or make the primary feathers into quill pens. I kept white racer pigeons, and they are my personal favorite survival bird. Portable, reproduce like crazy, good squab for the BBQ, and you can even use them for wireless communications as messenger pigeons and send out dove-mail.