Originally Posted by
clearvoice
Learning that the Tree of Life is a common reference to Torah , is well known by the same group of People that brought you the Torah "the Jews."
That is were Eddie got the idea from , and that is were I saw it first hand ,
in a synagogue where I got to handle a real Torah scroll learn about it. Not every thing Jewish , is bad , do you have some kind of phobia? They call the pages leaves, and they are for the Healing of the nations.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
This verse is using classic Hebrew parallelism; Law from Zion = Word of Yehovah from Jerusalem. Law ( Torah ) = The Word of God.
Isa 2:4 And he shall
judge among the nations, and shall
rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isa 2:3-4 is the exact same idea as Revelation , this is what Messiah came to do.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
And I do listen to Eddie Chumney he is one of my teachers. But once you've taken a lesson and proved it out it becomes first hand knowledge.
clearvoice, with all due respect, NONE of what you've posted above proves that the Tree of Life referred to in Revelation 22 is the Torah. Not one of the Scriptures you provided above indicates that Torah = Tree of Life. That is a leap that you are making based on Jewish tradition and experience in a synagogue. As you put it, "the same group of People that brought you the Torah 'the Jews.' ", have almost universally rejected Jesus Christ as Messiah and His work of redemption at the Cross.
I'll take my cues from Scripture, if you don't mind.
In the New Testament, when the word 'tree' is used, from Matthew - Luke 23, the Greek used for 'tree' in various places is as follows:
dendron
1) a tree
syke
1) a fig tree
sykaminos
1) sycamine tree, having the form and foliage of the mulberry, but fruit resembling the fig
sykomorea
1) a sycomore tree
In Luke 23:31 at the time of the crucifixion a different Greek word comes into play:
xylon
1) wood
a) that which is made of wood
1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
3) a fetter, or shackle for the feet
4) a cudgel, stick, staff
2) a tree
(One commentary regarding the 'green tree' can be found
HERE)
Again, in Acts 5:30 (After the crucifixion)
xylon
1) wood
a) that which is made of wood
1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
3) a fetter, or shackle for the feet
4) a cudgel, stick, staff
2) a tree
In Romans 11:
agrielaios
1) of or belonging to the oleaster or wild olive
2) the oleaster, wild olive tree
Galatians 3:13 and also in 1 Peter 2:24:
Back to xylon
Then in every reference to 'tree' in the book of Revelation save two (reference to a plain ol' tree - dendron, and to a fig tree - sykē), the Greek word for 'tree' is xylon, clearly used from the time of the crucifixion forward to refer to the Cross of Christ.
The Tree of Life in Revelation 22:2 is clearly the Cross of Christ - and the truth that through His death we may have life.
Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross is the Tree of Life, NOT Torah.
The assertion that the Tree of Life in Revelation 22:2 is a reference to Torah is not true. In fact, it is an attempt to replace the work of Christ at the Cross and His healing power to the nations with Torah!
That Torah = The Tree of Life is a doctrine of demons and is derived from the practice of Kabbalah which Eddie Chumney and other teachers in the HRM/MJ/Netzarim and related sects incorporate into their teachings via Jewish tradition and extra-Biblical resources including but not limited to the Talmud/Gemara/Zohar.
I reject it. It is not true. As with other instances when I'm examining a belief found in the HRM,
I find with great joy that the Gospel always stands !
Originally Posted by
clearvoice
As far as Saying the new testament is scripture , well yes in it's original intent I believe that to be true. But the dictionary to understand the NT , is the TANAK , if I dare say there are some cultural understandings from the Jews that assist greatly in the correct context as well.
Jews and Gentiles worshiping together was the norm in the early Church, not the exception. The separation came in the 4th century under Constantine when Roman Paganism polluted the truth , changed the Sabbath to Sunday, prohibited the celebration of Jewish Feast and would have killed anyone who challenged him. This is where Christians and Believing Jews parted , and where violence was done to the truth. Unfortunately we still live under many of the lies that were introduced by Pagan Rome. Not keeping the 7th day Sabbath being only one of them.
But the more you read about the God of Abraham and Issac and Jacob , and the nearer you want to draw to him , the more you will know how wrong the traditions and lies we have inherited are. I believe that system of lies is going to collapse , and God is calling a people back to himself in these last days. He is shouting to many to come out of her , that they don't receive of her plagues .
Forty9er said it very well:
Originally Posted by
Forty9er
What CV is saying (and probably what you agree with) goes beyond the belief that Scripture taken as a whole must be self consistent and not be contradictory. What he believes is that there is nothing "new" in the New Testament:
With these kind of blinders on, it is clear why he would make the statement that the NT is just commentary on the OT. This relegates the NT to permanent second class status and justifies his denial of the plain meaning of many NT verses and his forcing them, regardless of the contorted logic that it takes, into a mold that fits his personal dogma about what the OT teaches. This also contradicts what the NT says in many places:
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Gal 1:11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Eph 3:3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Eph 3:8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
Col 1:26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
To deny the plain meaning and truth of these verses is to deny the fact that they are Scripture and are inspired by God.
Thank you, clearvoice, for helping me to understand yet another aberrant teaching found in the Hebrew Roots Movement.
-JGIG