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Thread: Hebrew Roots Movement Attacks the Name of Jesus!

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    The gospel stands as opposed to what? You have said this many times now, and each time I read it, it irritates me even more.
    It irritates you that the Gospel stands? That, in the discussion above, the Cross of Christ really is the Tree of Life and Torah is not? That Christ and what He did there is central in the picture painted in Revelation 22 and Torah is not?

    Why do those things irritate you, Capt'n?

    And the Christians here are not opposed to Torah. We are opposed to the misuse of Torah:
    1 Timothy 1:8-11
    8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
    And we are righteous in Christ:
    1 Corinthians 1:30-31
    30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

    2 Corinthians 5:21
    21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
    You are acting like the gospel of how to be saved is somehow in conflict with obedience to God AFTER you are saved . . .
    Not at all. We as believers are called to obedience. To Mosaic Covenant Law? No. To love God and love others? Yes. The commands of Christ (in John 15 and other places) incorporate the precepts of God's Law (love fulfills the Law - one will not murder, steal, bear false witness, worship other gods, etc. if one is walking in love for God and others) without the regulations of God's Law, which were designed to keep Israel physically separate from the world so that Messiah would be recognized when He came.

    He came. He did the work of Redemption for mankind promised at the Fall. Now we are told to go out into all the world and make disciples, not separate from the world via laws of the flesh. As believers in Christ, what sets us apart is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the gifts and fruits that flow from Him. The Holy Spirit will not lead us into sin! We are not lawless because we do not observe the fleshly commands of Mosaic Covenant Law. God says that in Christ, we are righteous! In Christ, we have died to sin. If we are dead to sin, we are no longer bound to the Law (Romans 6)!

    Where Mosaic Covenant Law was designed to physically set Israel apart from the world, the Law of Christ enables us to be in the world, yet not of it. Mosaic Covenant Law cannot go into all nations, tribes, tongues, and cultures - the Gospel can.

    . . . and that Torah believers somehow are against the gospel. That is completely bogus.
    Not all are, and I recognize that. Some find joy and great insight by celebrating Feasts and Sabbaths. I think that's fine!

    There are many more, however, who speak of Jesus Christ in passing terms, but of Torah constantly, even replacing Christ with Torah in key places in Scripture, such as Who/what is the Word of God (logos vs. nomos in John 1 and every other place logos is used) to things like discussed above, where Torah has been put in the place where the Cross of Christ actually stands as in Revelation 22:2. These are not my imaginations. These are real substitutions that those who you label 'Torah believers' (why aren't they Christ believers, btw?) do on a regular basis. It is at best error, at worst doctrines taught by demons. I will not back off that statement, for if a teaching is not from God, who do you propose it is from?



    Come back from fantasyland, use some reading comprehension, and stop accusing Torah folks of being against the gospel.
    Come out of ad hom land and actually show us contextual Scripture to prove that keeping Mosaic Covenant Law is for believers in Christ. You can't refute what I've posted above about the Tree of Life, so you resort to trying to discredit me personally. You're showing the obvious weakness of your position, Captain.

    -JGIG


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    Only in your fantasyland, where everything in Scripture is an either/or scenario and everybody's interpretation is wrong but yours. Since it's a metaphor anyway, why can't the Tree of Life be BOTH????? Ever think of that?
    Because Scripture does not say it is both. That's why.

    You cannot in any way derive that the Tree (xylon) of Life is Torah based on the Greek word that John purposely put there. I have showed that John, in the book of Revelation used three different words for 'tree', so using xylon was on John's part a conscious, deliberate identification of the Cross of Christ.

    It cannot be both. Torah does not fit. Period.

    Scripture doesn't say what exactly the Tree of Life is anyway. . .
    So why are you so sure it's Torah, especially when the Greek word used by John in no way supports that view?

    . . . so for you to get stuck on one person's interpretation of this particular metaphor is completely absurd.
    It's not one person's interpretation of the metaphor in Revelation 22:2. It's an interpretation held to and taught by one of the more prolific teachers in the Hebrew Roots Movement (Eddie Chumney as shown above) and others. MANY teachers in the HRM believe and teach this lie, from those who run conferences and have a large presence on the internet, to folks like clearvoice who teach here on TOL.

    Torah is central to what they teach, not Christ.

    -JGIG


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    It irritates you that the Gospel stands?

    -JGIG
    That's not what I said and you know it. What irritates me is your insistence that Torah is opposed to the gospel.

    And the Christians here are not opposed to Torah. We are opposed to the misuse of Torah:1 Timothy 1:8-11
    8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinfu
    There is none righteous, JGIG. We are all ungodly and sinful and lawbreakers. That means the Law IS for us. We don't "get saved" and then magically become incapable of sinning or get held to a different definition of what sin is. There is only one definition of sin, and that is God's Law.

    And we are righteous in Christ:
    Unto salvation, yes, but not when it comes to daily living. Jesus is our example of how to do righteous deeds AFTER He saves us, not our excuse to ignore 3/4 of His Word and claim it was for some dead Jews.

    Not at all. We as believers are called to obedience. To Mosaic Covenant Law? No
    That's actually God's Law, so you're saying we're called to obedience by disobeying God's Law as believers. My head hurts.

    To love God and love others? Yes
    And HOW do we do that? 1 John 5:2-3 has the answer. Jesus said ALL the rest of the commandments hang off of the Big Two, but you say "Hang all the rest of the commandments!". I'm gonna stick with Jesus on this one.

    Now we are told to go out into all the world and make disciples, not separate from the world via laws of the flesh.
    We are called to do BOTH, actually, and always have been. It is only in your fantasyland that those ideas are mutually exclusive. "Be holy for I AM holy" ring any bells? "Holy" means "separate, set apart". You have to do some serious mangling of the word "holy" to draw your conclusions.

    Mosaic Covenant Law cannot go into all nations, tribes, tongues, and cultures
    It's God's Law, so of course it can. This is not found in Scripture. It's just your opinion. What's so hard about "don't work on Saturday", "don't eat pigs", etc? A child can understand that. You're the one making this complicated.

    Come out of ad hom land and actually show us contextual Scripture to prove that keeping Mosaic Covenant Law is for believers in Christ. You can't refute what I've posted above about the Tree of Life, so you resort to trying to discredit me personally. You're showing the obvious weakness of your position, Captain.
    Psh, yeah right. That's why you keep calling us and our beliefs "cultic", "demonic", "witchcraft", and God knows what else. It's because your arguments are so solid. Please. You're not impressing anybody.

  4. #204
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    So why are you so sure it's Torah, especially when the Greek word used by John in no way supports that view?
    I'm not arguing one way or another on that topic. I personally don't care. I just think you are being absolutely ridiculous over interpretation of a metaphor by calling someone else's interpretation "demonic". That is completely absurd.

    It's irrelevant what anybody thinks the Tree of Life is anyway. It has no effect on salvation or how you live your life, so stop blasting people with differing opinions. It makes you look incredibly ignorant.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    The gospel stands as opposed to what? You have said this many times now, and each time I read it, it irritates me even more. You are acting like the gospel of how to be saved is somehow in conflict with obedience to God AFTER you are saved and that Torah believers somehow are against the gospel. That is completely bogus. Come back from fantasyland, use some reading comprehension, and stop accusing Torah folks of being against the gospel.
    So tell me Captain Obvious...

    What is EXACTLY the Gospel?
    Why is owning pets better than owning kids? Because if they get pregnant, you can sell their children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    Tell me Al, if a doctrine that replaces the Cross of Christ with Torah (replacing that which can save and bring healing with that which cannot) are you saying that you don't have a problem with that?

    Read that again: The doctrine that teaches that Torah is the Tree of Life replaces the Cross of Christ.

    Do you in all honesty and integrity think that is a teaching from God? And if it is not from God, who is it from?

    -JGIG
    The Torah doesnt replace the Cross.

    In fact, the scripture death reigned from Adam to Moses referred to SPIRIUTAL DEATH, not wars and physical death.

    But the Mosaic Covenant, and the penalties of the law (notice I said PENALTIES) were removed with the Blood atonement of Yeshua.

    The flesh still sins, and still receives the consequences of sin in this realm. THAT is what the Torah is for.

    Torah (Instruction) is how to live best PHYSICALLY (not spiritually) on the earth.

    The Kingdom of God is how to live spiritually once you are transformed.
    Why is owning pets better than owning kids? Because if they get pregnant, you can sell their children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by argonath View Post
    Originally Posted by JGIG
    Tell me Al, if a doctrine that replaces the Cross of Christ with Torah (replacing that which can save and bring healing with that which cannot) are you saying that you don't have a problem with that?

    Read that again: The doctrine that teaches that Torah is the Tree of Life replaces the Cross of Christ.

    Do you in all honesty and integrity think that is a teaching from God? And if it is not from God, who is it from?

    -JGIG
    The Torah doesnt replace the Cross.
    Agreed.

    In fact, the scripture death reigned from Adam to Moses referred to SPIRIUTAL DEATH, not wars and physical death.

    But the Mosaic Covenant, and the penalties of the law (notice I said PENALTIES) were removed with the Blood atonement of Yeshua.
    Please provide Scripture telling us that only the penalties of the Law were removed by the work of Christ.


    The flesh still sins, and still receives the consequences of sin in this realm. THAT is what the Torah is for.

    Torah (Instruction) is how to live best PHYSICALLY (not spiritually) on the earth.

    The Kingdom of God is how to live spiritually once you are transformed.
    But those who 'keep' Torah are ignoring the consequenses that Torah demands for sin.

    Follow the laws of Torah for the flesh if you chose, but do not put that yoke on those in Christ. The apostles didn't.

    -JGIG


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

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    But those who 'keep' Torah are ignoring the consequenses that Torah demands for sin.

    No we don't. We rely completely on the blood of the Lamb.

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    Default I'm not even touching that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    Only in your fantasyland, where everything in Scripture is an either/or scenario and everybody's interpretation is wrong but yours. Since it's a metaphor anyway, why can't the Tree of Life be BOTH????? Ever think of that?

    Scripture doesn't say what exactly the Tree of Life is anyway, so for you to get stuck on one person's interpretation of this particular metaphor is completely absurd.

    Because Greek thinking has a very small box to put every thing in, only one idea fits in their tiny little box at a time.

    I'm not even touching that one.

  10. #210
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    Default Did anyone read this?

    Quote Originally Posted by clearvoice View Post
    Perhaps you can read this .. and see how the TANAK is the foundation of the New Testament Writings.

    You have to understand the new testament letters in a first century Jewish context or you will miss read them every time.

    If you want to know Eddies doctrines, go through this video series http://www.waytozion.org/video/eddie/eddie.htm.

    Or Here http://www.hebroots.org/


    As I've talked with you before about the differences in The Word of God ( the Torah) , and Man's application of the Law, even the Jews religion of Pharisaical Judaism and Oral Torah. Much of what Paul teaches against is often mistaken for the law of God, While Paul's rebuke is really aimed the law of man, specifically the precedents and traditions of the Pharisees.

    Ergon Nomos in the Greek , "Works of the Law" in English, Ma'asa ha Torah in Hebrew.


    Paul is warning about the religion of the Pharisees, and how the believers at Galatia should not follow it, just as Yeshua warned of the Pharisees doctrines in the Gospels.

    Messiah taught us to obey Moses, While he ignored Jewish traditions that made void the commandments of God.

    Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

    Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Two Thousand years later and we know the exact tradition that was being talked about here concerning the washing of the Hands.

    Here it is:

    "After Kiddush and before the meal, each person in the household should wash hands by filling a cup with water and pouring it over the top and bottom of the right hand and then the left hand. Before wiping the hands dry on a towel, the following blessing should be recited.

    Barukh atah Adonai, Eloheinu, melekh ha-olam
    Blessed are You, Lord, our God, King of the Universe

    asher kidishanu b'mitz'votav v'tzivanu
    Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us

    al n'tilat yadayim.
    concerning washing of hands."


    This is NOT in the Torah ANYWHERE! It is a precedent and tradition, a Burden or Ma'asa in Hebrew. There is no commandment to wash our hands , yet the Rabbis issue this commandment thinking that they have the authority to issue commandments as if they were speaking for God. When it is expressly forbidden to add to or diminish from the Torah , in the Torah. That's what I call Hypocrisy, and that is what Yeshua told us to beware of , the leaven of the Pharisees.

    There is a distinct difference between the religion of the Jews with their (traditions) and keeping the commandments of God.

    To this day the word for precedents or traditions is known in Hebrew by rabbis as "Ma'asa" singular or "Ma'asim" Plural in Hebrew. A Takanot is a Change in the law, as if the had that authority as well!


    There is a study on Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew that goes into great detail about this. You can read it here: http://www.triumphpro.com/bible-ques...-tov-jan08.pdf

    This is the translation of the Hebrew Mathew 23:2-3.

    “The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore
    all that he says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms
    (takanot ) and their precedents (ma’asim) do not do,
    because they talk but they do not do.”

    You can except this as a better translation or you can follow this translation.

    Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
    Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

    So you either have to listen to the unleavened Torah of Moses , or you have to listen to the Scribes and Pharisees. If you are trying to follow the commandments of Messiah , because there it is in red letters.

    I choose to believe the Hebrew Mathew translation , Torah is much easier to follow than the Volumes upon Volumes of Oral Torah and Traditions of the Jews.

    Now for something I found , that backs this thought up , no one showed this to me other than the Ruach , and it goes along with what I've been studying in Jeremiah 23.

    Jer 23:11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.

    note: he's not talking about all prophets and priest .. just the bad ones.

    Jeremiah 23 is a holy text and it is one of the places you should Study to know the Ministry of Messiah. How the Pastors were scattering the sheep and not searching them out, how the prophets prophecies lies from their hearts and dreamers told their dreams and Israel was corrupted.

    It very clearly speaks of Messiah , but addresses these many problems with prophets and priest.

    The Role of Messiah is to gather the scattered sheep and punish the pastors.

    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


    All of these bad things are contrasted with one remedy "Standing in His counsel. " and The coming Messiah "Yehovah Tzaddiquanue" is the Hebrew behind "The Lord our Righteousness " Off topic , but I find it and interesting parallel to " Melek Tzadek" King of Righteousness.

    Jer 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard [it]?
    Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

    Messiah came to set things right, He came as the good Shepard. If you understand first century Judaism and you can understand this text , and you really will understand why Yeshua did not get along with the Jews, and why the city was destroyed in 70 AD.


    But to my point , one of the problems mentioned were these prophets going around saying " the burden of the LORD" , I scratched my head a long time on this until I read it in the Hebrew.

    Jer 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What [is] the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
    Massa = "burden" מַשָּׂא

    In the very text that prophecies of Messiah , you see He's already had this conversation through the prophets to the Jews about there " Ma'asa". He Tells them explicitly not to teach burdens of the LORD, yet they do.

    So when you see Yeshua speaking to the Jews about their burdens he is fulfilling the Torah. He's dealing with the same type of problems Jeremiah prophecies though The Word of the LORD.


    Luk 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, [ye] lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

    Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

    That is Judiasm , that is directly opposed to Standing in His Council. That is directly
    opposed to the Word of God , The Commandments or the Torah of Moses.

    Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

    What is amazing is who they were talking to , I mean the Jews, where sitting in judgment of God manifest in the flesh , holding to their religion. The fearful part of this he warned them, and they happily went on to destruction.

    Jer 23:38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD;
    Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence:
    Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.


    Wow , I can think of no greater fulfillment than Jerusalem being exiled a second time , and the temple razed to the ground by Assyrian legions under the command of Rome. I mean when it comes down to it , the Jews could have believed, they could have received their Messiah. But their religion and their status and power where more important to them than Yehovah Tzadiquanue, that is The LORD OR RIGHTEOUSNESS and his counsel.

    You should go read some of the other things that priest and prophets were doing in Jeremiah 23, and take them to heart.

    Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

    Did anyone read this?

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