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Thread: From Pentecost at Sinai to Pentecost at Jerusalem

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    Default From Pentecost at Sinai to Pentecost at Jerusalem

    What was the difference between Moses getting the commandments at Sinai and the apostles and believers getting the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?

    Pentecost was the celebration of Moses getting the Torah from God as well as the seasonal harvest festival with the winter wheat coming in.

    Let’s look at what it was like at Sinai at that time:

    Exo 19:16 And it happened on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain. And the voice of the trumpet was exceedingly loud, so that all the people in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God. And they stood at the lower part of the mountain. 18 And Mount Sinai was smoking, all of it, because Jehovah came down upon it in fire. And the smoke of it went up like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked greatly.
    Exo 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking. And when the people saw, they trembled, and stood afar off. 19 And they said to Moses, You speak with us, and we will hear. But let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said to the people, Do not fear, for God has come to test you, and so that His fear may be before your faces, so that you may not sin.

    Exo 24:17 And the sight of the glory of Jehovah was like devouring fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the sons of Israel.
    The people were afraid of coming close to the mountain, afraid of God and His glory coming on them. They thought they would die if He came closer. They elected to have Moses go up to God instead of them. They didn’t believe Moses when he told them that that there was nothing to fear, that God would cause them not to sin. The Israelites refused. They wanted Moses to deal with it. They didn’t want God’s power coming on them.

    Let’s turn now to Acts and the apostles:

    Act 2:1 And in the fulfilling of the day of Pentecost, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came out of the heaven as borne along by the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    In this case, God Himself came to them and the same phenomena occurred as at Sinai but this time the people wanted to receive the gift from the Lord and God. He sanctified them by giving them the power. This was no mistake that it happened at Pentecost, same gifts, but this time, the people accepted the gift and giver. The results were believers who became new creatures in the Lord. At this Pentecost, God came down to the people and the people joyfully accepted His gift rather than asking for a mediator between them and God.

    At this time the Lord was able to use the Holy Spirit to teach and instruct the apostles in how He wanted His church established.
    Before Jesus’ death, all the apostles and followers thought was this is the Messiah and he’s going to kick Rome in the rear and establish the throne of David and we’re in the cabinet of His kingdom. They had no clue what the Lord wanted back then. Peter even tried to dissuade the Lord from going to Jerusalem and dying once he figured it out. How could the Messiah possibly die, now, just when they were getting a good following? Jesus had to break the yoke of Judaism from them, to teach them His commands and His Kingdom rather than what they thought was true.

    Remember, they knew He was the Messiah, they were wrong in the timing of His Kingdom and what He would do while on earth. They felt at the crucifixion that all was lost. There was no hope. Questions, fright, shock at the turn of events.

    It was after His death and resurrection he said:

    Luk 24:25 And He said to them, O fools and slow of heart to believe all things that the prophets spoke! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?
    They just didn’t get it. Still. They needed more knowledge and understanding from the Lord about what they were going to do.

    Which leads us to His parting words in Luke:

    Luk 24:44 And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and in the Psalms about Me. 45 And He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures.
    Here is where He says that all was fulfilled in the Law of Moses and the Prophets. It is finished as He said on the cross.

    Luk 24:46 And He said to them, So it is written, and so it behoved Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be proclaimed in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I send the promise of My father on you. But you sit in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.
    Here He tells them that indeed it has gone according to plan, according to the scriptures. He has redeemed all nations. They are to wait to have power from on high come upon them in Jerusalem. Their instructions now will come from the Holy Spirit where He said before His crucifixion:

    Joh 14:25 I have spoken these things to you, being present with you. 26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.
    The Holy Spirit will teach you all things. Notice He didn’t say that now they will proclaim the laws of Moses or the Torah or become better Jews. No, He said that the gospel goes to all nations, all peoples now.

    The Jews had their opportunity while he was on the earth, as a man, to accept their Messiah. And like the golden calf at Sinai, they chose to worship a false god of their own making. The faithful, like the tribe of Levi, stood with the Lord and remained.

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    Notice He didn’t say that now they will proclaim the laws of Moses or the Torah or become better Jews. No, He said that the gospel goes to all nations, all peoples now.
    Which if you bothered to read the Torah, you'd know that teaching all nations about YHWH was a commandment all the way back then, too. People act like the gospel was this "new thing", when really, it goes all the way back to the Garden. "Have faith in YHWH, trust and obey Him, and be saved" is the theme of the entire Scriptures, not just the NT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    Which if you bothered to read the Torah, you'd know that teaching all nations about YHWH was a commandment all the way back then, too. People act like the gospel was this "new thing", when really, it goes all the way back to the Garden. "Have faith in YHWH, trust and obey Him, and be saved" is the theme of the entire Scriptures, not just the NT.

    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


    Huh? From a child he has known?

    Hey...what Scriptures were around then?



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    Romans 2
    14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Actually has nothing whatsoever to do with my post, but hey...whatever, em!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
    Actually has nothing whatsoever to do with my post, but hey...whatever, em!
    Yes, it does. If the gentiles knew the law of God naturally then they 'know the scriptures' that are important to God from childhood.
    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


    Huh? From a child he has known?

    Hey...what Scriptures were around then?
    The scriptures to make one wise unto Salvation is available to every human being no matter where they live or access to the Bible or else God would judge those who reject His gift unjustly.

    But Romans 1 tells us that No One Has an Excuse.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Yes, it does. If the gentiles knew the law of God naturally then they 'know the scriptures' that are important to God from childhood.


    The scriptures to make one wise unto Salvation is available to every human being no matter where they live or access to the Bible or else God would judge those who reject His gift unjustly.

    But Romans 1 tells us that No One Has an Excuse.
    That is the biggest load of copout I think I've ever read. Nowhere in the history of anything has the human conscience/natural law been referred to as "Holy Scriptures".

    If you stretch any farther you're gonna strain something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    Yes, it does. If the gentiles knew the law of God naturally then they 'know the scriptures' that are important to God from childhood.


    The scriptures to make one wise unto Salvation is available to every human being no matter where they live or access to the Bible or else God would judge those who reject His gift unjustly.

    But Romans 1 tells us that No One Has an Excuse.
    Yeah...even for you that was quite a stretch of the imagination there, em.

    What you are saying is that Timothy, as a child, had no written Scriptures; nor his parents...but his understanding came purely as "natural" law.

    Gotta call strong BS on that one. But, it has taught me something about your understanding of the Scriptures.

    We'll leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
    Yeah...even for you that was quite a stretch of the imagination there, em.

    What you are saying is that Timothy, as a child, had no written Scriptures; nor his parents...but his understanding came purely as "natural" law.

    Gotta call strong BS on that one. But, it has taught me something about your understanding of the Scriptures.

    We'll leave it at that.
    No, we won't leave it at that.

    What do the initials BS stand for there Al? Is that they way someone who claims that they are following God's will speaks?

    Either people who never have the Bible to read are able to be saved or only those who have the Bible to read can be saved.

    Which is it Al?

    Romans 1 says: 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    This idea that only those who had the scriptures had knowledge of God's will and law is contrary to what the scripture says.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    That is the biggest load of copout I think I've ever read. Nowhere in the history of anything has the human conscience/natural law been referred to as "Holy Scriptures".

    If you stretch any farther you're gonna strain something.
    Do you honestly think that the 'Holy Scriptures' were WRITTEN down in the garden of Eden? For the people who were wiped out by the flood and yet were judged? Is God unjust because He judged people who didn't have these 'Holy Scriptures' to read?

    When were the 'Holy Scriptures' written down then?

    Was it available to Sodom and Gomorrah?

    You folks are trying to box God in and rely far too heavily on man's contribution to God's plan by having to write things down on paper to be valid.

    My first search online came up with this response. Do you have an earlier date?

    Moses wrote the Torah - first five books of the Bible at the direct command of God around 1500 BC.I believe Isaiah and Jeremiah also received specific instruction to write down their prophecies.......
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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