Your opinions on baptizing at home.

[Theresej]

So Jesus never gave them permission to give others permission to baptise.

Actually, Jesus did just that. He gave them permission to send outhers the way He sent them, as the Father sent Him.

This is the heart of Apostolic Succession. The bible has to be taken as a whole.


Authority comes from God alone.

God cared enough to extablish a means by which all could know exactly where that authority resided, to prevent any confusion unless one rejects what God instituted.

It is in the bible.

Jeus was sent from the Father with the power and authoirty in heaven and on earth, which would include the power and authority to pass on HIS power and authority to others.

This He tells us and this He did - speaking to the apostles and only the apostles:

Matt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.


John 20:21
So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

So, in the same way the Father sent Jesus, Jesus sent the Aposltes.

Since it is in the same way, "AS" the Father sent Him, which obviously INCLUDED the power and authority to PASS ON that same power and authority, the Apostles possessed the power and authority to pass it on to others.

That we see that this has happened is evident in other scriptural proofs

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

We can see this process of Apostolic Succssion with the Apostles laying hands on Paul . . Paul laying hands on Timothy . . Timothy laying hands on others. . .

So, in just one line of Apostolic succession we have seen here, we have

The Father . . .> to Jesus . . > to the APOLSTES . . > to PAUL . . > to TIMOTHY . . > to OTHERS . . . who would then have passed it on to others. . .

At least FIVE times the passing on of this power and authority has been documented in the NT.

There is a clear line extablished for the passing on of Apostolic Authority given by God in the begnning.

God has CHOSEN this method to pass on this authority . . this is so we are never left guesssing where it is or reliant on self claims of those who try to lay claim to it. We have a CLEARLY established line of succession, and example of which is easliy found in scripture if one undrestands what they are looking at.

There is never any indiciation in all of the NT that this plan of God's, this line of succession, was ever done away with.


It is still here today . . we can trace the lines of succession of our Bishops all the way back to the Apostles themselves. . . valid apostolic succession . . we have a clear line and know where this same power and authority first passed on to the Apostles resides today.

[Emily]

Since Paul telling giving instrutions to Titus was not good enough for you... Here is Paul giving Timothy the same.

1Tim.3

[1]The saying is sure: If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task.
[2] Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,
[3] no drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, and no lover of money.
[4] He must manage his own household well, keeping his children submissive and respectful in every way;
[5] for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God's church?
[6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil;
[7] moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
[8]Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for gain;
[9] they must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
[10] And let them also be tested first; then if they prove themselves blameless let them serve as deacons.
[11] The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things.
[12] Let deacons be the husband of one wife, and let them manage their children and their households well;
[13] for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[14]I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
[16] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh,vindicated in the Spirit,seen by angels,preached among the nations,believed on in the world,taken up in glory.

What Church ...What religion ?

Again- you are quoting from the RCC Bible.
The wording is actually different. The only way to know which Bible is correct would be to go to a neutral source and study the original scripts and then translate.

And the 'Church,' the mystery is not a religion it is the body of Christ of which Christ is the head. We have a direct connection with Him.

It is a relationship restored between the creation and the creator to all who believe and receive. Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.1 Timothy 3

Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. 8 In the same way, deacons[b] are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women[c] are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
Reasons for Paul’s Instructions

14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[d]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

The Truth is Jesus. The Truth will Set You Free.

[Theresej]

The claim is made, once again, that the Catholic Church began with Constantine.

"No, it is not. The RCC began with Constantine. True Christianity are those who follow Christ."

The entirety of the historical record shows this to be false.

The Catholic Church existed before Constantine and existed unchanged after Constantine.

Catholicism is true Christianity for Catholilcism follows Christ fully.

The perpetuation of the claim above to the contrary, as well intended as it may be, is stil nothing more than the continuation of the perpetuation of a myth.

[Fisheater]

No priest, pharisee, sadducee, or any other intercessor is needed any more. Just like none were needed in the Garden of Eden.

This one has me a bit perplexed .... maybe even a little frightened ....

[Emily]

This one has me a bit perplexed .... maybe even a little frightened ....

Why? Do you think the vatican and the pope existed in Eden?

[Fisheater]

Why? Do you think the vatican and the pope existed in Eden?

No but I always thought you were one of the more rational ones here in the land of oz ....

[Emily]

The claim is made, once again, that the Catholic Church began with Constantine.

"No, it is not. The RCC began with Constantine. True Christianity are those who follow Christ."

The entirety of the historical record shows this to be false.

The Catholic Church existed before Constantine and existed unchanged after Constantine.

Catholicism is true Christianity for Catholilcism follows Christ fully.

The perpetuation of the claim above to the contrary, as well intended as it may be, is stil nothing more than the continuation of the perpetuation of a myth.

This may be what the RCC has written as history but it is not true.

Catholics follow the Pope first, Christ second.
Catholics have priests as intercessors. We need no one to intercede with our Lord. That was the point of His death and resurrection.
Catholics believe that they cannot be assured of their salvation even though Christ said 'It is Finished."

You may believe the writings of men, I have only one teacher, my Lord Christ Jesus. I know for a fact that He does not condone or approve of a group of men who have committed the atrocities of the Vatican and continue to do so to this day.

Christ Jesus had no place to call home and yet the Pope lives in a palace of gold while his 'flock' live in poverty. How does the one who is supposed to be the intercessor for Christ live better than He did?

I will respect you to believe what you want to believe and trust that God will lead you but please don't try to tie my Lord in as solely belonging to the RCC and that they hold the corner on the term Christian.

That is not respecting the rest of us who disagree with you.

A Christian MEANS one who follows Christ. We don't need the pope to do that.

[Emily]

No but I always thought you were one of the more rational ones here in the land of oz ....

Rather than the cryptic insults why don't you come out and explain what you are talking about.

[RossLunch]

Rather than the cryptic insults why don't you come out and explain what you are talking about.

I was just getting ready to challenge that Oz business, but you said it better and with better verbiage.

No flying monkeys on TTOL.

[Fisheater]

This may be what the RCC has written as history but it is not true.

Catholics follow the Pope first, Christ second.
Catholics have priests as intercessors. We need no one to intercede with our Lord. That was the point of His death and resurrection.
Catholics believe that they cannot be assured of their salvation even though Christ said 'It is Finished."

You may believe the writings of men, I have only one teacher, my Lord Christ Jesus. I know for a fact that He does not condone or approve of a group of men who have committed the atrocities of the Vatican and continue to do so to this day.

Christ Jesus had no place to call home and yet the Pope lives in a palace of gold while his 'flock' live in poverty. How does the one who is supposed to be the intercessor for Christ live better than He did?

I will respect you to believe what you want to believe and trust that God will lead you but please don't try to tie my Lord in as solely belonging to the RCC and that they hold the corner on the term Christian.

That is not respecting the rest of us who disagree with you.

A Christian MEANS one who follows Christ. We don't need the pope to do that.

The Bible is the book of the Church; she is not the Church of the Bible. It was the Catholic Church--her leadership, faithful people--guided by the authority of the Spirit of Truth which discovered the books inspired by God in their writing

380 A.D. The Latin Vulgate was translated by St. Jerome. He translated into Latin the Old Testament from the Hebrew and the New Testament from Greek. The Latin Vulgate became the Bible of the Western Church until the Protestant Reformation in the 1500's. It continues to be the authoritative translation of the Roman Catholic Church to this day.

There was a constant history of faithful people from Paul's time through the Apostolic and Post Apostolic Church.

Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon.

Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today's canon.

The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus' Decree.

Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books.

Pope Innocent listed the present canon.

The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.

The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397.

This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.

Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books. The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.



I do not see the Church of Emily in the history here ... So I ask. How can you use and trust a book that was put together by those you so mistrust?