Concerned Follower Of Jesus!

[Theresej]

Yes

They all differ one from another.

If they differ from one another, how do you know what you call the bible is indeed the word of God and innerant?

We are discussing this in two threads. Which thread would you like to continue this discussion in?

[Melodious Musician]

But Paul taught Jesus. Haven't you learned that Jesus is Torah?

Jesus = Law (John 1:1)
Jesus = God
Law = God

God must be worshiped so the Law must be worshiped.

Don't pay any attention to the logic just accept it!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....'Nuff said.

[BloodySwordIsa63]

If they differ from one another, how do you know what you call the bible is indeed the word of God and innerant?

We are discussing this in two threads. Which thread would you like to continue this discussion in?

It is not a question of 'if', they all differ.
So, when one says 'THE Greek text says...in reality there is no such thing as'THE' Greek text. He might be saying it because 'every 'scholar' says it, or he might be lying, who knows?

Now the question is ' how do I know if 'the bible' is the word of God'

Answer:Based on manuscrpt evidence, I believe that the Textus Receptus, from which 'MAINLY' the AV1611 comes, is 'the Bible'

This of course throws out two manuscripts( and possibly three) that are used as a basis for the modern versions.

Those two mss would be Siniaticus and Vaticanus. Both Egyptian , Alexandrian Roman Catholic texts that contain the Apocrypha as part of the inspired canon.

The Roman Catholic council of trent, said that if one did not accept the apocrypha as part of the OT canon, they were 'anathma' ( which means about as much as a pile of feathers)

Now, how do I know the KJV is the Bible?
Easy.
Your catholic forfathers killed people for posessing a copy of the Bible that preceded the KJV that used the same manuscripts to produce such Bibles.

They dug up William Tyndale and burned his bones because he dared to produce a Bible in English.

I shall not go on with the crimes done in the name of the Pope, lest I offend... but it is a fact that Hitler, and the rest of the high command of the SS were not fundamental baptists.

[CRodgers]

You are right Melodious Musician.

It was a part of Him.

Another interesting tidbit of information I would like to share is when Yeshua said I am the Aleph and the Tov.

If you look at the very beginning verse in Gen 1:1 you see the Aleph and Tov together. In Hebrew it's called Eth or a direct object pointer. Meaning this.

In the beginning G-d created ->by Yeshua -> the Heaven's and the Earth.

I believe John had this revelation and thus mentioned in verse 3.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Kathe]

Paul did not teach Torah?

First off, there was no New Testament bible back then. When they taught scripture to the new converts and brought them back to the synagogue, what do you think they taught them out of?

I know we have been brought up in a modern western mindset but please don't let that cloud our ability to see stuff like this.

Paul when he was arrested because he was accused of corrupting the temple by bringing Greeks into it said the following.

Act 22:3 I am verily a man, Jew, born in Tarsus, in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Not only was Paul a Jew but he was a Pharisee.

He said "I am a Jew" (Present Tense)

Standing before the Sanhedrin, Paul identified himself as a Pharisee in the present tense (Acts 23:6) NOT as a "Christian" when he said "Brothers, I myself am a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee!"

Paul even said in Acts 24:14 "I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets."

In Acts 25:8 Paul said "I have committed no offense, not against the Torah to which the Jews hold, not against the Temple, not against the emperor." Although free from condemnation through the shed blood fo Yeshua, he walked in obedience to the Torah as a Jew.

When Paul finally gets to Rome, he "Called a meeting of the local Jewish leaders. When they had gathered, he said to them: "Brothers, although I have done nothing against either our people or the traditions of our fathers, I was made a prisoner..." (Acts 28:17)

Paul not only walked and kept the law but taught it as well.

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all

Don't you know???? Jesus and the disciples all walked around with the KJV under their arms. J/K of course.

I agree with you that the NT talks about Holy Scripture, scripture, etc it is only talking about the Old Testament. The Law, the Psalms and the Prophets.

[Kathe]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....'Nuff said.

If that was enough then why did God give us 66 books of instruction, teaching and prophecy?

[Theresej]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....'Nuff said.

"The Word" does not mean scripture.

[JGIG]

I agree Clearvoice. If Paul was against Torah why did he circumcise Timothy? That is just one example. He kept the Law and preached Yahshua as the perfect Lamb sacrifice.

If Paul was not against the regulations of Torah why did he not circumcise EVERY male believer?

Hmmmm?????

If you're going to use that logic you have to take it ALL THE WAY.

-JGIG

[JGIG]

Paul to the unlearned...a stumbling block.

I read this or something like a it a few years back , and had my doubts about Pauline doctrines.

But today I understand the language Paul used better , and he is not against keeping the commandments of God (Torah), he is very against keeping the doctrines of the Pharisees (Men) for salvation (Modern Day rabbinical Judaism.)

The fact is , Paul is the most difficult author to understand. And even once you do understand him , it's really difficult to teach because you have to put so many things in their proper context. To Hear Paul correctly , You have to remove your bias against Torah , and unlearn the doctrines of lawlessness you once believed, and learn some things about the practicing Pharisees and their language , and why both the Messiah and Paul railed against them ( Pharisees).

The error is not with Paul it is with our lack of understanding , and our false doctrines that cloud our mind. The KJV doesn't help much either , it's best to study the Greek text of Paul's letters , and the Aramaic would probably be better. The closer you can get to the intent and 1st century context of the very Jewish author Sha'ul (Paul) the better.

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my fortress, My refuge in the day of affliction, The Gentiles shall come to You From the ends of the earth and say, "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, Worthlessness and unprofitable [things]."

Yep . . . the ol' "Paul didn't really mean what he clearly wrote" angle.

Overall, Paul was a pretty straightforward guy.

I know several former Hebrew Roots Movement folks who have eventually come out of Law 'keeping' error because the book of Galatians kept chipping away at their doctrine. When they finally came to grips with the fact that Paul wrote EXACTLY what he meant and stopped all the finagling with his words, they understood the Gospel as it is intended to be understood. As they re-read the rest of the epistles the Gospel was confirmed to them and they look back on their Law 'keeping' days with a sense of 'how could I have been so deceived?!'

I have actually seen HRM statements of faith for local fellowships that quote Paul's writings (merely quote the references, not write them out) to support error, but when you actually go the the Scripture they quoted it says the exact OPPOSITE of what they claim it does.

It really is the most amazing thing!

-JGIG

[JGIG]

This is why Paul circumcised Timothy:

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. -- 1st Corinthians 8:9

Paul taught liberty in Christ. When a person is washed in the blood of Jesus, he becomes clean in God's eyes. When he is filled with the Holy Spirit, God's law is written on his heart, and the law written on paper (Torah) becomes irrelevant -- he has the mind of Christ, and knows what the will of the Father is without outward constraints.

I don't find Paul hard to understand at all.

Yep.

And Paul only becomes 'hard to understand' when someone tells you, "Oh, he really didn't mean THAT . . . he really meant THIS . . . " Echos of the "Did God really say . . . ?" lie anyone?

-JGIG