Concerned Follower Of Jesus!

[TheAnonymousCoward]

How is it possible that dead people can keep the law?

Romans 6:5-14
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Because we are dead to SIN, not dead to the opposite of sin, which is obedience. Obedience to what? God's Law of course.

Romans 8:7 The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

The opposite must also be true then. The non-sinful mind DOES submit to God's Law! Amazing, huh? Go Paul!

[Melodious Musician]

So is it your position that God is not sovereign? That His word is corrupt and He cannot even keep it accurate?

Exactly my point!

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psalms 12:6-7

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2

[Theresej]

I refers to Christ--that He is the Law.

Where does it say He is the Law?

[Daytonabill0001]

Where does it say He is the Law?

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

The 1898 Young's literal translation says,
Isa 1:10 Hear the word of Jehovah, ye rulers of Sodom, Give ear to the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,

Theresej, Why don't you ask God who is the Law and tell us what He personally said to you? After all, He told us that His ways are higher that our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Let's tune to His higher thoughts, shall we?

[JGIG]

Hey JGIG.

Luke was not an apostle and received his information from what he was told.

It sounds like you don't believe that Luke's writings are inspired Scripture.

Paul mentored Luke and told Luke of his conversion. LUKE was not there at Paul's conversion and was NOT a witness of his conversion. Those who were there, however, never witnessed for him. Paul lied and said they heard the voice of Jesus, then changed it and said they didn't.

Yet the account is there in the Scriptures. Again, it sounds like you don't believe that Luke's writings are inspired Scripture.

As far as Peter, biblical scholars are unsure of who pinned the letter. The letter by 1 Peter said it was written by Sylvanus (1 Peter 5:12). 2 Peter was also marked as a possible pseudograph. Scholars also believe that the letters of "Peter" were tampered with.

Your statement implies 'all scholars' are unsure. That is not the case at all: http://bible.org/article/2-peter-peter%E2%80%99s

You say that 'scholars' (again implying 'all') 'believe' that the letters of Peter were tampered with. I found no reliable sources that say so. And last I checked, 1 and 2 Peter are in the canon of Scripture, so close scrutiny was obviously given to both. You'll have to do better than your ambiguous say so for me to buy your assertions.

There was no need for Jesus to call a murderer to do His work after he commanded to apostles to teach all nations what He had commanded them.

Paul was just carrying out the Law as it is written . . . why do you call Paul the Pharisee a murderer? He was upholding the Law you claim to obey!

The fact is, there are only 12 apostles to the Lamb (Rev 21:14) and Paul could not be an apostle. He never met Jesus. Jesus made it clear that what the Father had told Him, that He told the apostles.

So if what you say is true, why is the following in the canon of Scripture?

Ephesians 4:11-16
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Apparently, the apostles knew nothing of Paul's gospel and feared he was NOT an apostle.

Where is the Scriptural evidence for this assertion?

Regardless, Paul clearly taught and acted differently than Jesus. If we need Paul, then Jesus did not finish His job.

Then what did Jesus mean when He said this:

John 14:12
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

or this:

John 16:12-15
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

His faith doctrine is the broad way to destruction.

So this isn't true?

John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Paul's words hang himself. For example:

Romans 3:7 Paul metions that the truth of God had more abounded through HIS LIE unto God's glory.

Um, no. That's not what it says. Let's try a healthy dose of context, shall we?

Romans 3:1-20
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.


3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”


5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Paul was not saying that about himself; he was relaying a faulty argument! Your accusation falls flat in the face of reality.

2 Cor 12:16 Paul mentions he was crafty and caught them with guile.

Did you really think that no one would bring up context for this one either? Paul was known for his sharp wit and occasional sarcasm, as evidenced in this passage:

2 Corinthians 12:11-21
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!


14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?
19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening. 20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.

Careful study will show you that Paul was NOT holy spirit inspired.

Based on what I've discovered above about your conclusions, careful study is not something you are familiar with.

I'll go with the canon of Scripture as it stands, thank you.

-JGIG

[Theresej]

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

The 1898 Young's literal translation says,
Isa 1:10 Hear the word of Jehovah, ye rulers of Sodom, Give ear to the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Joh 1:2 this one was in the beginning with God;
Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men,

Theresej, Why don't you ask God who is the Law and tell us what He personally said to you? After all, He told us that His ways are higher that our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Let's tune to His higher thoughts, shall we?

Logos does not mean Law.

Word does not equal Law.

[NancyT]

How is it possible that dead people can keep the law?

Romans 6:5-14
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Maybe they're not dead?



Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.



Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

[Kathe]

I came to the conclusion some time ago after finding some discrepancies between the two Covenants (Testaments) that I would read the New but if it disagreed at all with the Old that I would ignore it (the New). Whatever the New says it has to be backed up by the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has been kept in very good order except for the redaction of certain names such as the Name of God (over 6,000 redacted and replaced with a title) and other instances like that.

The New Testament however has not such a good history. And the councils that put it together are suspect to me. There is a pro-government slant to them and other things that just don't line up right according to the OT.

When Yahshua walked the earth and the apostles after Him the only Scriptures they had were the Holy Scriptures - the OT. Good enough for them - good enough for me.

[Emily]

I came to the conclusion some time ago after finding some discrepancies between the two Covenants (Testaments) that I would read the New but if it disagreed at all with the Old that I would ignore it (the New). Whatever the New says it has to be backed up by the Old Testament.

The Old Testament has been kept in very good order except for the redaction of certain names such as the Name of God (over 6,000 redacted and replaced with a title) and other instances like that.

The New Testament however has not such a good history. And the councils that put it together are suspect to me. There is a pro-government slant to them and other things that just don't line up right according to the OT.

When Yahshua walked the earth and the apostles after Him the only Scriptures they had were the Holy Scriptures - the OT. Good enough for them - good enough for me.

So what evidence do you have that the Messiah promised in the OT has come?

Or are you still waiting for Him?

[Emily]

Defending Paul’s position with Jesus’ and the original apostle’s words.

The law will not be done away with until all are convicted in their heart that they need a savior by it or are judged by it at the end of time. At the end of time (described in Rev 20), a new heaven and a new earth are made and God will be our light (Rev 21).

Jesus eloquently explained in Matthew 5. Jesus even went to the extreme of telling them they would have to cut off their hands and gouge out their eyes if they were so determined to be justified by the law. He should them how hating someone was equal to murder (and we all know how easily it is for our human hearts to do that and how hard it is to let go of it) and how lusting in one’s mind was equal to adultery. No one can rationalize that Jesus truly intended people to mutilate themselves to keep the law. He was telling them that it was impossible for people to reach the level of perfection that God had showed them in the law and how much they needed a savior.

In Matthew 19, He told the rich man that even if he followed the law perfectly, it was still impossible.

For those who received His gift of grace and are born again a new creation no longer are under the law, but under grace.
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

The law also will not be done away with until everyone who has not come to a saving faith is judged by it which happens as it is described in Rev 20:13
each person was judged according to what they had done.

It is immediately after that that ALL THINGS ARE MADE NEW.
Rev 21
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,

Jesus came to fulfill what we could not do and to those who come to Him with a repentant and humble heart, we are born again a new creation and He tells us that love fulfills the law under the NEW COVENANT He established in His blood.

Matthew 5:17
[ The Fulfillment of the Law ] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

John 13
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
In Matthew 19 Jesus made it clear that no one is justified by the law. A rich man comes to Him and states he has followed the law and Jesus tells him that is still not enough.
The disciples are shocked. They ask Him:
“Who then can be saved?” and Jesus responds “With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible.”

Break the least of these – they break them all. James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17)

Jesus also makes it clear that not living up to the law would not keep someone out of heaven but if someone teaches to reject the law – they would be least in heaven. They would still be there, just least.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven

Jesus also made it clear that LOVE fulfills the law.
Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

He chastised the Pharisees for having the appearance of being righteous but because they lorded themselves over others and did not love, they were no better than those they judged.

Matthew 23
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

If the pathway Jews were following was sufficient then Jesus would not have had to come and die in our place. Instead, Jesus made it clear that His work was to fulfill the law and that He was making a way for us to be born again, a new creation. He was the second and last Adam of which those who die to self and are born again are a part of Him, no longer children of man (the first Adam)

We must die to self:

Matthew 10:38
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34
[ The Way of the Cross ] Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

All of these make it very clear - and ALL 4 gospels state it.
That we are to die to self, be crucified in the spirit on the cross with Him, which makes way to be born again by His spirit through His righteousness. Casting aside the curse of Adam and being graced with the righteousness of Christ. If the first Adam had never sinned and we were his offspring, we would not be under judgment of the law.

But since we died to self, the one under judgment as a child of man, what power does law have over a dead person?

We must be born again which is the sole work of the Holy Spirit on the repentant heart (which means one who has changed their mind and in a salvation setting, do the opposite of what Adam and Eve did in choosing to live for God instead of self)

John 3:3
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”

Born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.


Paul describes the same teachings of Jesus and the original apostles when He presents the gospel to the gentiles.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, (those who are born again have faced the judgment and were judged righteous under Jesus' righteousness) The only other judgment seat for born again Christians is the Bema seat regarding rewards or lack of them.

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Romans 8:1
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.