Blood of Pope John Paul II to go on display at Vatican

[Theresej]

There was one Church ....one Faith at Luther's time .... Historic Fact.

Under what or who's Authority did Luther change the Gospel ? If Luther was right then why is there 40,000 others denominations that claim they have the truth ?

There is one Truth one Church started by God .... Do your home work .....

You know. that's EXACTLY what I did.

10 years ago I began to do my homework for the first time in over 30 years - in earnest, steeped in prayer.

What I found out about the real Luther and the Reformation was not pretty. In fact, it was downright ugly. It was shocking, revolting.


So began my search for the truth of it all.

[Theresej]

Emperor Constantine was desirous of a united Christendom. At the time, there were various Christian doctrines throughout the Roman Empire. In 331 Constantine convened the First Council of Nicaea whose duty it was to settle upon a single Christian doctrine. To accomplish this, the Council basically cherry picked from among existing "books" in use by the various Christian groups and compiled the result into a single "church" doctrine. Constantine later ordered fifty copies to be produced for distribution among fifty churches within his empire - which would be the Holy Roman Empire soon enough and the beginnings of the RCC.

This is a very poor rendition of history.

The facts are:

There was one dispute on a point of christology and the Trinity - WHO Christ is - which represented a departure from the teachings of the apostles.

This departure was called "Arianism"

Ariansim taught that Jesus was not fully the eternal God.

When did this contention arise? The last 3rd century, BEFORE Constantine.

So how and why did Constantine get involved?

Constantine got involved because of what this controversy was threatening to do to his empire. This controversy, started by Arius in Alexandria, denounced by the Alexandrian partriarch, found succor in Anitoch . . and from there it spread. It was not merely a controvery that bishops were concerned with, it invaded the everyday life of the common folk. You could not go by bread without being embroiled in an argument over this controversy. It got to the point that blood had actually been spilled as a result of this controversy among the common people. This one heresy, now become controversy, was destablizing his empire.

What was Arius' heresy?

Arius claimed that God the Son had a beginning,"There was a time when the Son was not." was Arius' rallying cry - claiming that he was not eternally coexistant with God the Father. He had heretical views of who the Son of God was.

A synod had already been called in Alexandra in 321 AD, without Constantine being involved in any way, where Aruis first started his error, and dealt with it. declaring what the Church had always taught and condemning Aruis' error. But Arius ignored the intervention of the Bishop and peristed and his simple, yet dangerous heresy. Because Arius and his followers had great influence in the schools of Alexandria (counterparts to modern universities or seminaries) their theological views easily spread in the east.

The East, despite their attempts, failed to effectively deal with it, but, instead, allowed it to progress until, in a few short years, it had a majority following in the East. It was when it started spilling over into the West and the effect it had on the empire that the Emperor stepped in and called the Bishops to task for not having dealth with this issue in a definitive way.

Constantine was a pragmatic man, but not given to understanding the subtleties of such doctrines as the Trinity. He knew he did not have the mind for such things, and he depended on the Church to declare what was true.

So, it was in an attempt to restore peace to his empire that Constantine called this council for the Church to settle the issue once and for all. The Council proceeded and from that we get our Nicene Creed condemning Arianism and affirming right doctrine in regards to the Trinity.

The Counicl of Nicea was called to combat this one particular heresy. The Nicene Creed was drawn up as a statement of faith to combat this heresy. The Nicene Creed has it's origin in earlier creeds, notably the earlier Apostle's Creed, expanded upon it, in particular in regards to the defense of the Trinity, to defend the faith of the Church handed down from the Apostles against this heresy. The Nicene Creed has also proven effective against other Christological heresies that would rear their head.

Additionally, the claims above regarding "50 copies" of something is in error.

Constantine had 50 copies of the scriptures created to REPLACE THOSE that had been burned in the book burninngs ordered by his predecessor against Christians in a move of reconciliation with the Christian Church for the crimes committed against Her.

The claim that Constantine created the canon is not true. Emperor Constantine did ask bishop Eusebius of Caesarea to have fifty copies of the New Testament reproduced for the new imperial capital at Constantinople. But the work of collating the New Testament books had been done over the preceding centuries. The evidence for this is abundant. The most famous documentary example is a piece of writing known as the Muratorian fragment. This fragment dates from the end of the second century and is named after the Italian scholar who first published it in 174. It is a list of books recognized by the church: four Gospels (though the first two are missing due to damage to the fragment), the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen epistles of Paul; three epistles of John; Jude; the Apocalypses of John and Peter. Significantly, the Muratorian canon rejects Gnostic works by Valentinus and others.

Garry Williams, Ph.D. , Tutor in Church History and Doctrine at Oak Hill Theological College in London.

http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/...nstantine.html

[Jezcruzen]

How could Constantine not be involved? He directed the Council be convened. Maybe you should re-check your historical resources!

"The First Council of Nicea was convened by Constantine I upon the recommendations of a synod led by Hosius of Córdoba in the Eastertide of 325. This synod had been charged with investigation of the trouble brought about by the Arian controversy in the Greek-speaking east.[10] To most bishops, the teachings of Arius were heretical and dangerous to the salvation of souls. In the summer of 325, the bishops of all provinces were summoned to Nicea (now known as İznik, in modern-day Turkey), a place easily accessible to the majority of delegates, particularly those of Asia Minor, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.
This was the first general council in the history of the Church since the Apostolic Council of Jerusalem, the Apostolic council having established the conditions upon which Gentiles could join the Church.[11] In the Council of Nicea, "the Church had taken her first great step to define doctrine more precisely in response to a challenge from a heretical theology."[12]"

[Melodious Musician]

The key feature in all three situations is that GOD did the work thru the elements be it man, shadows, hankies or donkeys. The Glory belongs to the LORD, no to the vessel. When I build a book case, the glory doesn't go to the saw, or the hammer. The credit is mine. Likewise, any miracles performed by God using a man, or any other element, belongs to God, not the element.

The beautification and sainthood practices places the Glory that belongs to God only, onto the vessel. Herod burst his guts when he tried to take God's Glory. If it was wrong for him, it's wrong for us, too.

^ This. Thank you. It's why I'm a former Catholic.

As for worshiping in the catacombs, Christians did that back then because they didn't have a choice--they were in hiding, and figured that their enemies would not search for them there.

[Melodious Musician]

I still haven't seen the Catholics address the issues brought up by Ruckmanite:

"Jesus said call no man on earth your father. Your religion has thousands.

Paul said abstaining from meat and forbidding to marry is a doctrine of devils. You've thousands of molesting perverts behind the robes because they cannot marry.

Your supposed first pope, peter, was married.

You are forbidden before the law, under the law, and after the law to abstain from blood, and yet every mass a priest "changes" wine into literal blood and a cookie into literal flesh and you eat and drink it.

What happens to your god when you digest it and it goes through the urinary tract system? Talk about holy crap.

You bake cakes to the queen of heaven."

I'm going to add one, Ruckmanite. The Catholic church--last time I checked; they may have put it back in by now--removed the commandment to not make unto thee any graven image.

I have been watching this thread from afar, and am amazed to see Catholics accusing others of doing precisely what they are doing: Taking verses out of context, etc.

Ms. America was correct when she pointed out that all of the verses used to back up Theresej's and the others' posts were all done by JESUS. He has the power to do all those things--if we had that power, He would not be needed.

[Fisheater]

^ This. Thank you. It's why I'm a former Catholic.

As for worshiping in the catacombs, Christians did that back then because they didn't have a choice--they were in hiding, and figured that their enemies would not search for them there.

The Church does not "Make" Saints ....The Church Confirms Saints.

[Melodious Musician]

The Church does not "Make" Saints ....The Church Confirms Saints.

But what gives us the right to put them up on such pedestals? I mean, the Bible basically says that any who follow the Law of the Lord is one of His saints; but to make them into something that people worship is wrong. You can say that no one worships them, but the fact is, they do, deep in their hearts.

[Fisheater]

But what gives us the right to put them up on such pedestals? I mean, the Bible basically says that any who follow the Law of the Lord is one of His saints; but to make them into something that people worship is wrong. You can say that no one worships them, but the fact is, they do, deep in their hearts.

It is as it has always been ....Part of the Sacred Traditions of the Church.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition, which is why the apostle Paul told us to stand fast and hold to the traditions (plural) whether taught by word (verbally) or in writig, ie eipistle.

Scripture commands us to stand fast and hold to more than just scripture - and it puts what was taught verbally (by word) on equal footing with what was written, scripture, and even in front if it.

[Theresej]

Therese, perhaps I do misunderstand, but I have some serious doubts about that. I was raised Catholic, and the more I read the bible, and spent time in prayer, the more convinced I became that there was a vast difference between what religions practice, and what God wants us to know about Him. I've done my uttmost to learrn His ways and to obey what HE taught me. Despite having taught Catechism for 2 years, having put 2 groups of kids through First Holy Communion, I left as an adult, and have never regretted my decision.

Hi Ms. America,

I appreciated your post. :)

Perhaps sometime we can sit down and explore this a bit more. One thing I have noticed in my conversations with ex Catholics about the Catholic faith - and this is not meant to be insulting in any way - is that not one has been able to fully and properly articulate what the Catholic Church actually teaches, and what they reject is often a distorted view of actual Catholic teaching on some fundamental level - something I would reject as well IF it was indeed the real teaching of the Church.

Now granted, catechesis was very poor the last half of last century in the United States especially, and the ex catholics I have spoken with I have found were taught incorrectly by commission or omission and believe they were taught what the Church actually teaches. When we start to dig, we find out they weren't.

Now, you could be the first I have met who doesn't fit this, however your statement:

The beautification and sainthood practices places the Glory that belongs to God only, onto the vessel.

leads me to believe otherwise.

The Catholic Church does not take glory that belongs to God alone and place it on the vessel . . in fact, the Catholic Church teaches against doing so in no uncertain terms.

Idolatry
2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER ONE
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND" ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

[ReticentEnigma]

It is as it has always been ....Part of the Sacred Traditions of the Church.

Mark 7:13 - And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others."