Blood of Pope John Paul II to go on display at Vatican

[Melodious Musician]

Because scripture tells us to hold to more than scripture :)

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

The Greek word translated "word" here is

word"

G3056
λόγος
logos

Thayer Definition:
1) of speech

1a) a word,uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said

1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

1c) discourse

1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3)a kind or style of speaking
1c4)a continuous speaking discourse - instruction

1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
1g)the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed

2) its use as respect to the MIND alone

2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation

2e1) reason would

2f) reason, cause, ground

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3004
Citing in TDNT: 4:69, 505

This is referring to what was VERBALLY taught.


I don't really want to disobey scripture by holding only to the written word and ignoring the verbal teachings handed down from the Apostles.

But that verse doesn't say that that which is taught verbally is something other than what is in the Bible--it denotes that the Scripture is taught by reading or orally.

[Theresej]

Hmm, in the cemetery, not surprised...

Okay, since we have derailed from the original intent of the OP several different times, I'm no longer restrained from asking the Nicolaitanes posing as Zealots of God some very important questions that might as well as be asked right here in this thread, since this thread can't be severely derailed anymore than it already is.

If you had some real history to ask about, it might go much easier for you.

As it is, all you are asking about are myths.

Question #1: Why did you guys lock up the Word in the fourth century, resulting in the period of time known as 'the Dark Ages'?

Never happened.

Question #2: Why did you guys start the theology known as the Replacement theology? You know that Israel in the Bible means Israel, Jacob means Jacob and the church means the church, but you say that Physical Israel no longer has any part of the promises God made to Abraham, Israel and Jacob... What's up with that?

Replacement theology is a loaded term and without you defining what exactly you see replacement theology to be, there can be no real answer.

I suspect that what you refer to replacement theology has nothing to do with Catholic teaching contrary to your claims.

As far as the second part of your quetion, they have the same part as everyone else in Christ does. . for there is netiher Jew nor Greek in Christ.

Heb 8 tells us that the Old Covenant was made obsolete and passed away. Since this has been dealt with in depth elsehwere, there is no need to do so here.

Question #3: Paragraph 100 in the Catholic Catechism: "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." Please reconcile this with the fact that Jesus said that the Holy Ghost is our teacher.

There is nothing to reconcile.

Both are true. However, you and I were never promised an infallible understanding of scripture personally. A simple looking around will show that everyone acting as their own pope doesn't work . . there is a plethora of interpretations among those who are part of and have branched off from, the Protestant Reformation.

What the scriptures actually tell us is that Jesus promised the apostles that they would personally be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. That is who Jesus was speaking to.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Additionally, Jesus said to the apostles "As the Father has sent me, so send I you"

John 20
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you."
20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

There is nothing qualifying that statement, nothing limiting that statement.

As part of that sending, the Father sent Jesus to teach infallibly. So, with these words above, Jesus sent the apostle, ordained by Jesus Himself, to teach infallibly.

The Father sent Jesus with the power and authority to pass on that same power and authority.

So with these words above, Jesus passed on thatpower and authority to pass on that same power and authority to the Apostles.

The apostles passed on that same power and authority to teach infallibly to others they ordained, as well as the power and authority to pass it on to others. Those passed on the same to those they ordained, and so forth and so forth throughout the centuries.

This is known as Apostolic Succession and it started with Jesus. The teaching of the Church you refer to above is based on this Apostolic Succession. The Holy Spirit has protected the teaching of the Apostles through this sending in keeping with Jesus' words, which is why the doctrines of the Catholic Church today is the same as it was in the beginning of the Church.

I was going to say something about the unholy crusades, but we can tell and know a tree by the fruit it produces, right? So your history pretty much reveals to us what kind of fruit your church has produced since it's birth. Bad fruit = bad tree.

Thank you for sharing your opinon. I happen to not agree.

Peace

[Easyrider]

Do you love the Lord, or do you love to love the Lord?

Which one are you? Which one is your religion? Which one is simply faith in the word?

.....

[Daytonabill0001]

Quote:

Question #1: Why did you guys lock up the Word in the fourth century, resulting in the period of time known as 'the Dark Ages'?
Never happened.

Right, and the 'Dark Ages' never happened...

Quote:

Question #2: Why did you guys start the theology known as the Replacement theology? You know that Israel in the Bible means Israel, Jacob means Jacob and the church means the church, but you say that Physical Israel no longer has any part of the promises God made to Abraham, Israel and Jacob... What's up with that?
Replacement theology is a loaded term and without you defining what exactly you see replacement theology to be, there can be no real answer.

I suspect that what you refer to replacement theology has nothing to do with Catholic teaching contrary to your claims.

As far as the second part of your quetion, they have the same part as everyone else in Christ does. . for there is netiher Jew nor Greek in Christ.

Heb 8 tells us that the Old Covenant was made obsolete and passed away. Since this has been dealt with in depth elsehwere, there is no need to do so here.

So you do agree that the Jews are God's chosen People and that God has brought them to their land promised to Abraham and his physical seed... And that it was just as much our doings as it was the Jews that Jesus was executed???

Quote:

Question #3: Paragraph 100 in the Catholic Catechism: "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." Please reconcile this with the fact that Jesus said that the Holy Ghost is our teacher.
There is nothing to reconcile.

Both are true. However, you and I were never promised an infallible understanding of scripture personally. A simple looking around will show that everyone acting as their own pope doesn't work . . there is a plethora of interpretations among those who are part of and have branched off from, the Protestant Reformation.

What the scriptures actually tell us is that Jesus promised the apostles that they would personally be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. That is who Jesus was speaking to.

Additionally, Jesus said to the apostles "As the Father has sent me, so send I you"

John 20
19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you."
20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

There is nothing qualifying that statement, nothing limiting that statement.

As part of that sending, he Father sent Jesus to teach infallibly. So, with these words above, Jesus sent the apostle, ordained by Jesus Himself, to teach infallibly.

The Father sent Jesus with the power and authority to pass on that same power and authority.

So with these words above, Jesus passed on thatpower and authority to pass on that same power and authority to the Apostles.

The apostles passed on that same power and authority to teach infallibly to others they ordained, as well as the power and authority to pass it on to others. Those passed on the same to those they ordained, and so forth and so forth throughout the centuries.

This is known as Apostolic Succession and it started with Jesus. The teaching of the Church you refer to above is based on this Apostolic Succession. The Holy Spirit has protected the teaching of the Apostles through this sending in keeping with Jesus' words, which is why the doctrines of the Catholic Church today is the same as it was in the beginning of the Church.

WOW! You are pretty good! I counted no less than six straw-men in your last response... I want to see what the purple-lipped one has to say, so I'll resume this later...

[Melodious Musician]

.....

I love the Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Easyrider]

I love the Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen. All that other stuff of ceremony, idols, and props is loving to love the Lord. That stuff is for the engrandisement (sp?) of the human.

[Theresej]

But that verse doesn't say that that which is taught verbally is something other than what is in the Bible--it denotes that the Scripture is taught by reading or orally.

Not at all.

There is nothing anywhere in scripture that states all of what was taught verbally was written down. Nowhere will you find it.

In fact, the essential nature of the New Testament makes it even clearer it was not all written down as scripture.




The New Testament is made up of different genres.

• There is the Gospel genre. . the Four Gospels, telling us about the life and teachings of Christ.
• There is the Historical genre. . .Acts. It is not a complete history, but gives us insights into the Early Church of the first years.
• There is the Epistle genre - the letters. There are the letters written to belivers and have several purposes: to encourage, exhort, correct, elaborate upon what was already taught.
• Then there is the Apocalyptic genre - Revelation highly symbolic writing to tell of the ultimate triumph of God over evil through the Church.

Who were the NT scriptures written to?

They were written to Christians, those ALREADY brought into the faith, those ALREADY born again . . .

Those who had ALREADY been brought into the faith, who had ALREADY been born again had ALREADY been taught by the Apostles and those they ordained to do the same, such as Timothy, the basic, foundational truths of the Chirstian faith.

In other words, the the actual,in person teaching of the Apostles LAID the FOUNDATION of the Christian faith in their lives, BEFORE any letters or Gospels or anything else in the NT had been written.

None of these books were written to those who needed the foundational truths of the Christian faith taught.

These books were written to those who already had been taught the foundational truths of the Christian faith.

This is extremely important to understand when one approaches the NT scriptures.

As such, there is no need for the scriptures to contain all the teachings of the Apostles, the all truth Jesus promised them the Holy Spirit would lead them into.

This is why Paul, under the inspiritaion of the Holy Spirit, tells us to hold to the traditions (plural) that were verbally taught as well as what was written.


If you look at the Old Testament, the Pentatuch, the first 5 books include very detailed instructions of the Judaic religion. . . those instructions are the foundational teachings of Judaism. It is laid out like a map -an insructional manual for Judaism 101.

When God started the Old Covenant and Judaism, He gave them WRITTEN instructions from the start.




There is no counterpart for it in the NT.

• Everything written in the New Testament was written AFTER the detailed instructions on the Christian faith were given by the Apostles to the Church.
• The foundation of the Christian faith was laid, IN WORD, in person, by the Apostles.
• The epistles were written not to lay the foundation again, but to BUILD UPON that foundation already laid.

So, rather than concern themselves with giving us a clear, detailed, step by step Christianity 101, like we have in the OT for Judaism, they ASSUME that those reading the NT books have already recieved the FOUNDATIONAL INSTRUCTION given by the Aposltes, and so there is no need to lay it again!

True, there are places in the epsitles where the writers had to deal with those who needed to be CORRECTED regarding some foundational truth, but there was no attempt to relay the entire foundation, and mostly what they wrote about BUILT ON the foundation already laid IN PERSON.


So . . these books, especially the epistles, ASSUME that the one readng them has ALREADY BEEN TAUGHT the fundamentals of the Chrsitian faith.

This is extremely important.

If one doesn't understand this, then one looks to the NT books to provide for Christians what the OT pentatuch does in its instruction manual for Judaism, and it just isn't there.


This makes it very evident . . .

The scriptures were never meant to stand by themselves.


They were meant to be understood looking at them from the perspective of the foundation laid, by WORD - verbally, by the Apostles.

This is why we are instructed by Paul to stand fast and hold to the traditions (plural) that had been taught, whether BY WORD or epistle.


This is what the Catholic Church has done for the entirety of Christian history.


Additionally, the scriptures tell us something very amazing and is also amazing in what it excludes.

The scriptures do not tell us that the scriptures are the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The scriptures DO tell us what is .... The Church:

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth

This is the declaration of the scriptures. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

[Theresej]

Right, and the 'Dark Ages' never happened...

The term "Dark Ages is a myth. They are known as the Middle Ages.

The only reason they did not become a true Dark Ages was BECAUSE of the Catholic Church, which was the bastion for the preservation of scienes and arts, and civilization itself.

So you do agree that the Jews are God's chosen People and that God has brought them to their land promised to Abraham and his physical seed... And that it was just as much our doings as it was the Jews that Jesus was executed???

Several questions there the most important one: Yes, it was just as much our doing as it was the Jews that Jesus was crucified. So does the Catholic Church teach.

WOW! You are pretty good! I counted no less than six straw-men in your last response... I want to see what the purple-lipped one has to say, so I'll resume this later...

Thank you for sharing your opinoin, but I am not sure you understand what a strawman arugment is. :)

[Theresej]

Do you realize that the Mass is partaking in part of Passover Seder???

Why then don't your church partake of Passover Seder in it's fullness?

Tap tap tap... Ahem...

It's not the passover seder. :)

[Theresej]

A valid question. The Bible says that those who believe in the Lord will have discernment.

Do you believe you are personally able hear the Holy Spirit infallibly?