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Thread: Christians and OT Law

  1. #1
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    Default Christians and OT Law

    Not meaning to start an argument but I fear one will ensue so I'm starting this where it would probably have ended up. I had to laugh when I pulled up my syllabus for my next class entitled "OT use in the NT" and came across this outline.....

    Christians and the OT Law
    Matthew 5:17-20, Romans 3:31

    A. The old covenant is an agreement which is fulfilled in Christ, and therefore we are under a new covenant.

    B. What the law is not:
    1. Directly authoritative (Colossians 2:13-15)
    2. A means to salvation (Romans 8:1-4)

    C. What the law is:
    1. The Word of God
    2. To lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:19-25)
    3. To make us aware of sin (Romans 3:20)

    II Defining OT Law

    A. Torah = law
    1. Five books of Moses
    2. Selections within these five books
    3. In the NT the five books of Moses are usually being referred to

    B. Types of laws:
    1. Ritual law (Cultic law) Leviticus 1:1-2
    (Ch. 1-7) - not renewed in new covenant
    2. Civil law: Deuteronomy 17:14-20, Exodus 21:28-29 - not renewed in
    new covenant
    3. Dietary/Hygienic laws Leviticus 15:31
    4. Ethical law (Exodus 20) - parts are renewed in new covenant.
    Leviticus 18

    III Applying the Law today

    A. Look for NT affirmation- Examples: Ephesians 4:28, Colossians 3:9
    B. Search for insight into general moral principles - Deuteronomy 15:1-6,
    23:17-18, 24:6
    C. Some laws pre-figure Jesus - John 19:31-37; Exodus 12:46
    D. Some laws pre-figure other teachings - Colossians 2:9-12
    Well this should be an interesting class with us not only addressing the above but utilizing pesher and midrash. I'll keep you posted.
    We wanted a FIGHTER. We got a fighter in Trump. He will not take anything laying down. Trump or Bust.




  2. #2
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    I have a sneaking suspicion after all the discussions here at the Tree that you'll be one of the most informed people in that class on all sides of this issue. Keep us posted on this!

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    I second that idea.

    IMO we tend to miss the obvious fact that apart from the Law there would be no basis on which to declare an action sinful. In I John we are told that sin is the transgression of the law. So, obviously it has not been eliminated. But are we still under the burden of memorizing those six hundred plus precepts? I think not, though some sincere Christians will disagree. Christians are under a higher law than the Torah. Our thoughts, feelings, and intentions are under scrutiny, and the Holy Spirit is the One who is to direct our affections and actions. I Tim 1:9 indicates that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient. The righteous man walks in the Spirit rather than the works of the flesh, and therefore the Law is not directed at him. But he doesn't live like a libertine, because his desire is to please the Lord, and to obey the Holy Spirit Who lives within.

    That makes some sense to me, although I know it doesn't eliminate every apparent conflict.

    regards,

    Garryowen

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    Actually, Paul states that the law was added because of sin. And yet Solomon states that there is not a righteous man on earth that always does good and never sins....so does the righteous man still need the law?

    In addition, I see a difference between a precept and and ordinance/law. The ordinance is a specific requirement. A precept is the underlying truth/principle that makes the specific ordinance correct. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free...free from what?...the law?...no, free from sin and death.

    Free from sin and death because we obeyed the law?...no, free from sin and death because the Holy Spirit informs us about our Maker, makes us know Him. When we know Him, He shows us principles about himself. those principles show us what is right to do, and we do it(obey the law). Then in looking upon the law, we realize that it is true and good.

    So for me, even though I don't observe the letter of the ordinance in all instances (although I do in some), I obey the Spirit of that ordinance in every way that I understand to do it.

    Example, I don't wear a phylactory (although it is not wrong to do so), but I keep the word of God before me at all times...in my mind as well as flesh.

    An example of what I do obey to the letter(except of course for when I don't 8^) ) is the Ten commandments (the covenant)...When one looks at them, there does not exist one of them that one cannot look at and say "it is absolutely true in it's totality and worthy of strict obedience".

    We are under a higher law than the Torah in only one sense. That the One who gave the Torah lives in my heart and wrote it there as well...not in the form of ordinanes, but like the profits indicate in places such as Psalm 119, in life giving precepts and guideposts. I am circumcised in my heart, which is greater than my flesh...but my flesh now walks in a circumcised fashion because of my heart(where Christ dwells) which directs it....which is sanctification.

    I think an important aspect goes unrecognized regarding the law and the Hebrews. Yes, it was given because of sin to a people who came out of slavery, who had forgotten about God and His truth. But it was given in order to inform them about God and to draw them to Him..the prophets made that clear enough and rejoiced in it. So it was always the precepts of God that drew a man to love God and His law, but for the unrepentant of heart, the law condemned because of his disbelief and disobedience. Like the prophet said "the righteous one shall live by faith"...and Paul said "that which does not come from faith is sin"

    On the other hand, the Hebrews made the whole thing into a marriage between human govt and religion. Isn't that what our own founders recognized as nothing new and safeguarded against? Isn't that the whoe beast/Nimrod system in it's essence? Moral law had to be observed and kept and policed...so one had to obey it whether they believed it, understood it or not. Ultimately they refused and rejected God's covenant with them.

    It's late and I'm tired, I hope this all makes sense.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    Okay, class was almost over with and my professor hadn't addressed the subject so I brought it up...the question about the laws and all he simply said was...

    "The purpose of the law was to show us in no uncertain terms that we could never be righteous."
    We wanted a FIGHTER. We got a fighter in Trump. He will not take anything laying down. Trump or Bust.




  6. #6
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    OOh, poor Moses should have never told them that 'these things are not out of your reach nor too difficult for you' ... or 'be ye circumcised in the attitude of your heart'...the professor says otherwise, Moses should have known better.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Actually, Paul states that the law was added because of sin.
    Actually, that is not correct. First, what law did Adam and Eve break then?

    Second, Paul actually said:
    Galatians 3:19
    Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

    Romans 8:3
    For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

    1 Corinthians 15:45
    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    1 Timothy 1:9
    9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    Romans 2:14
    (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.


    Acts 15
    5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
    6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
    12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
    16 “‘After this I will return
    and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
    Its ruins I will rebuild,
    and I will restore it,
    17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
    says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
    18 things known from long ago.[c]
    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

    Romans 4:13
    It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Matthew 19
    The Rich and the Kingdom of God

    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
    18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
    Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
    20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
    21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
    22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
    23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
    25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
    Don't stop there...

    Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Oh what a shame for folks to stop at the beginning steps for new converts!

    Every sabbath they would come and learn!

    SHEMA!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
    Don't stop there...

    Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    Oh what a shame for folks to stop at the beginning steps for new converts!

    Every sabbath they would come and learn!

    SHEMA!
    How in the world does that sentence negate the decision that was made to NOT put the laws of Moses on the backs of the gentiles?

    Scripture does not conflict so the meaning you seem to be claiming cannot be what you infer.

    Let's read the whole thing

    Acts 15
    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
    The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers

    22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers,
    To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
    Greetings.
    24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
    Farewell.
    30 So the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31 The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32 Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers. 33 After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. [34] [d] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    How in the world does that sentence negate the decision that was made to NOT put the laws of Moses on the backs of the gentiles?

    Scripture does not conflict so the meaning you seem to be claiming cannot be what you infer.
    They were beginning Em...simple as that. You don't swallow the entire steak in one bite.

    By your premise, the "four things" mentioned were all that were EVER required of them.

    Nonsense.

    Did the 10 commandments fly out the window by those "four things"? Just do these fours things, but murder, adultery, covetnous, etc. are all good now?

    Salvation by faith, works always follow.

    Your premise is ridiculous...at best.

    Moses, every sabbath was preached...they would go and learn.

    Simple.

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