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Thread: Christians and OT Law

  1. #11
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    It seems to me that the entire 10 commandments are summed up in the command we are given post resurrection: Love God with your whole being, believe on Jesus as Messiah and love your neighbor as yourself. If one worked studiously at that, I don't believe one would break any commandment.

    Now I will admit that loving God with your whole being may be accomplished and provide light in various ways according to how the Spirit moves each individual. Believing in Jesus may also cause different folks to act as they are moved by the Spirit not necessarily in lockstep with others, and as for loving our neighbor as ourself, well that is distinctly personalized isn't it.

    Having said that, there is much direction and advice given in Scripture and also by listening to the Holy Spirit with respect to how we may utilize the gifts that we are granted. Therefore it seems wise to me that we each be careful about what we demand from our fellows as to what our work should be once we have repented and believed. It would also seem to be wise to spend more time looking inward and working on our own behavior and sharing the joy we find in our changed lives rather than the harshness of criticizing others for what they may do or not do.

    Thank you Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    as to what our work should be once we have repented and believed.
    That's a great point...what DID we repent from? Breaking His commands...and if I dare say so...defined as sin?

    Now to me, repentence means to turn and go the other direction...not the same way you came from!

    That's just me though...

    YMMV

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    It seems to me that the entire 10 commandments are summed up in the command we are given post resurrection: Love God with your whole being, believe on Jesus as Messiah and love your neighbor as yourself. If one worked studiously at that, I don't believe one would break any commandment.

    Now I will admit that loving God with your whole being may be accomplished and provide light in various ways according to how the Spirit moves each individual. Believing in Jesus may also cause different folks to act as they are moved by the Spirit not necessarily in lockstep with others, and as for loving our neighbor as ourself, well that is distinctly personalized isn't it.

    Having said that, there is much direction and advice given in Scripture and also by listening to the Holy Spirit with respect to how we may utilize the gifts that we are granted. Therefore it seems wise to me that we each be careful about what we demand from our fellows as to what our work should be once we have repented and believed. It would also seem to be wise to spend more time looking inward and working on our own behavior and sharing the joy we find in our changed lives rather than the harshness of criticizing others for what they may do or not do.

    Thank you Jesus.
    Amen!
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

  4. #14
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    [
    quote=Emily;1521465]Actually, that is not correct. First, what law did Adam and Eve break then?

    Second, Paul actually said:
    Galatians 3:19
    Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
    That is indeed correct. Are you saying that transgression is somehow something totally different than sin?


    Concerning everything you posted below, what does any of it have to do with why the law was added?

    Romans 8:3
    For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,to be a sin offering.[
    c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

    1 Corinthians 15:45
    So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

    1 Timothy 1:9
    9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

    Romans 2:14
    (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.


    Acts 15
    5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
    6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
    12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[
    a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
    16 “‘After this I will return
    and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
    Its ruins I will rebuild,
    and I will restore it,
    17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
    even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
    says the Lord, who does these things’[
    b]—
    18 things known from long ago.[
    c]
    19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

    Romans 4:13
    It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

    Matthew 19
    The Rich and the Kingdom of God

    16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
    18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
    Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[
    c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
    20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
    21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
    22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
    23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
    25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


    [/QUOTE]
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    It seems to me that the entire 10 commandments are summed up in the command we are given post resurrection: Love God with your whole being, believe on Jesus as Messiah and love your neighbor as yourself. If one worked studiously at that, I don't believe one would break any commandment.
    Well, one would at least be moving in the direction of not breaking His commands. As Christ's spirit in us instructs us and informs us, we definitely find ourselves obeying more of the commands.

    You made a good statement here. It recognizes Christs sanctifying work, but also doesn't attempt to nullify the law, but recognizes, like Paul said, that we don't nullify it but instead we uphold it.

    Now I will admit that loving God with your whole being may be accomplished and provide light in various ways according to how the Spirit moves each individual. Believing in Jesus may also cause different folks to act as they are moved by the Spirit not necessarily in lockstep with others, and as for loving our neighbor as ourself, well that is distinctly personalized isn't it.
    Yes, and we can look at each individual and follow Christ's path in their lives to see how the current fruit being made manifest is occurring in their lives.

    Having said that, there is much direction and advice given in Scripture and also by listening to the Holy Spirit with respect to how we may utilize the gifts that we are granted. Therefore it seems wise to me that we each be careful about what we demand from our fellows as to what our work should be once we have repented and believed. It would also seem to be wise to spend more time looking inward and working on our own behavior and sharing the joy we find in our changed lives rather than the harshness of criticizing others for what they may do or not do.

    Thank you Jesus.
    Yes, we do not demand of anyone what we know Christ is demanding of us...because Christ makes demands upon our hearts concerning behavior after He has made the truth known to us ...the one that knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin. We do need to discern though that the source of "truth" coming from others is Christ and there is doctrine and what passes as truth that does not come from Him.

    Making demands regarding behavior though should be differentiated from recognizing truth and sound doctrine. A "gospel" that finds as significant a part of Gods word as the law (Which is a very broad term, even the promises are part of the law) as passe or non-applicable or now somehow untrue is really no gospel at all.

    Sin is sin and should always be recognized as such, but we must always make sure the gospel is preached in our own hearts first and foremost.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    [

    That is indeed correct. Are you saying that transgression is somehow something totally different than sin?


    Concerning everything you posted below, what does any of it have to do with why the law was added?



    There was only one request God made of Adam and Eve- to trust Him and the evidence of that trust was that they did as He asked and not eat of the tree.

    Satan presented them with the same choice every human being who has ever reached the age and mental capacity to discern right from wrong has - to choose to please self and be 'like' a god or to love and trust God and choose Him above self.

    The law was given to help further define the perfection that God requires if you are going to be holiness enough for God's level of holiness.
    Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19 that it still was not enough for the attempts of man to think they are holy by trying.

    He also made it clear in Matthew 5 that all sin begins in the heart, in the mind. If you think lust, you have committed adultery, if you hate - you have murdered.

    No human being can live up to the perfection of the law and that is why Jesus came and did what we cannot do.

    Our righteousness and salvation is in Him alone.

    We respond to His GIFT with our love for Him and others above self.

    The problem the pharisees had and many people who hold to the law keeping have is that they think they have some level of holiness or righteousness in following the law and trample love on the floor of their works.

    Our salvation is in our faith in Him - trusting Him - loving Him. Doing the opposite of what Adam and Eve tossed aside to satisfy the desires of their own hearts.

    None of the patriarchs or women in the OT who were lifted up as holy by God were revered for their keeping of the law - they were held up by God because they trusted Him.

    Noah was a drunk and yet he was the only one God saved from the flood - because He trusted God.

    David was a man who (with God being outside of time) who broke just about every moral code out there and yet God called him a man after His own heart. Because David loved and trusted God.

    Abraham was called God's friend and revered because Abraham trusted God.

    I could go on but I think you get the idea.

    Jesus said that all the laws were summed up in the two main commandments and if anyone did those, they fulfilled them all.

    And I'm sorry you did not see the point I was making with the scriptures I posted. I will leave that in God's hands.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

  7. #17
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    "Making demands regarding behavior though should be differentiated from recognizing truth and sound doctrine. A "gospel" that finds as significant a part of Gods word as the law (Which is a very broad term, even the promises are part of the law) as passe or non-applicable or now somehow untrue is really no gospel at all.

    See, here is the elephant in the room. Somehow, some folks who believe that the OT law is somehow held by believers under Grace to be "passe', non-applicable or somehow untrue" is a total misunderstanding of what believers are saying and in fact believe.

    It's been hard for me to watch these struggles and disputes because most of the time I see that each side seems to be talking to a brick wall because of a blinder that seems to be placed over the eyes of the disputants with respect to what each seems to believe, especially those who cling to the old ways.

    Scripture says Christ is a stumbling block. So true. Actually, though, it seems to me, that each believes the same thing, which is one of the greatest ironies I have ever experienced, because neither seems to understand that fact. The old is in the new and the new is in the old, it's just all the same now in Christ!! We can never perfectly keep the law so that it had to be kept for us by the deity Himself. Actually it can't be any other way. Man's keeping of the law is just as impossible now as it was before Christ. Believing in Jesus does not imbue us with some supernatural ability to keep the law by ourselves at all times. Examine your conscience and know that is true.

    Jesus said the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Further, if we are in Him, He is in us, then we are also in the Father and the Father is in us. Does it need to be more clear than that? Complicated and hard to grasp, especially with our self centered ego, certainly. But He who is in us also said "It is finished." No work is left. It is done. Yet we continue to ask what is our work and I see God shaking His Head and Sighing....like a longsuffering parent, so He says "Love Me with all your being". "Believe my Son" (This is my Son, in Him I am well pleased.) and "love your neighbor as yourself." This sums up thousands of years and millions of words, yet we continue to pick at each other over a fulfilled contract. If you want it hard, then keep trying to be perfect. Otherwise, be at peace and wait upon the Lord, please. Listen to the spirit and do as He directs and be at peace with each other and accept the Grace we are blessed with.

    Saying that OT law has been fulfilled in no way diminishes it's validity, reality and continued importance. It is the preface and the pointer to the real story. As I've said before, fulfilling something does not make it disappear, only that it's purpose has been completed and summed up. The new has not diminished or denied or cast off the old by fulfilling it. In fulfilling it, has also incorporated it and embraced it and celebrates it. The entire OT law is a litany of pointers proving the rebelliousness of man (against the standards required by God), it defined sin and the lengths He goes to continue to reveal the Truth the Light and the Way that brings us into fellowship with Him. Embrace the law by accepting the gift of Grace and then do as the Holy Spirit counsels and directs. It may not always be the same for all men under Grace. The fact that the Lord describes His church as being a body is not just idle talk. Our bodies have millions of interconnected but individual purposes but having one head.

    The whole gospel of Christ is not that we must follow the law. We can't. It is about us embracing the law in Him. He has done the work. It is left for us be beneficiaries of the Grace by His perfection and sacrifice.
    Last edited by grampster; 05-20-2011 at 11:00 PM.

  8. #18
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    Well Em, I still don't see how any of this relates to me being wrong about the law being given because of sin. You quoted that the law was given due to transgression, but I John clearly states that sin is the transgression of the law. You left it to the Lord, and I guess so will I.

    I'm not sure where you're going drawing me in to this topic, but I guess I'll comment on o acouple of things.
    [quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    There was only one request God made of Adam and Eve- to trust Him and the evidence of that trust was that they did as He asked and not eat of the tree.
    Well, that was not specifically stated, but I suppose I agree with it for the most part. To clarify though, that trust that was required was not a blind trust without knowledge. Although the teaching of the man at least appears to have been different from that of the woman, they both had the creation explained to them and thus had ample reason to trust God. They also both had the trees at the center of the garden explained to them and the consequence for disobeying explained as well.

    If I understand where you're going, you're making a case for faith at the time of creation. I can buy that just fine....one difference we may have is the definition of faith. If I understand you, you perhaps define faith as trust. To me faith leads to trust, but that may be splitting hairs for the purpose of this discussion, I just don't know because I don't know where you're coming from with introducing the topic.


    Satan presented them with the same choice every human being who has ever reached the age and mental capacity to discern right from wrong has - to choose to please self and be 'like' a god or to love and trust God and choose Him above self.
    Agreed....

    The law was given to help further define the perfection that God requires if you are going to be holiness enough for God's level of holiness.
    Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19 that it still was not enough for the attempts of man to think they are holy by trying.
    Hmmm, well, I see your point, but that cannot negate that Moses told them in giving the law that it was not too difficult for them or out of their reach.

    Both passages have to be true, so we must align our beliefs with the course of thought that allows for both and sees them as complimentary.

    I suggest that there is a way to look at the law that does not approach it from a standpoint of behavior modifiation, but from a perspective of understanding of principle that can only be perceived through the "transformation through the renewal of the mind". When we understand what makes a given command true, we can observe it in a way that is consistent with the holy spirit and the scripture. When I seek to unify OT with NT, this approach seems to best facilitate a view that the OT writers (like in Psalm 119) knew what they were talking about.

    That said, Matthew 19 does not trump Matthew chapter 5 where Christ reaffirms the law. Instead, ch 19 clarifies that Moses was not condoning sin. If you look at what Moses said, he didn't require that a certificate of divorce be given...what he said was that anyone who gives his wife a certificate of divorce and she remarries, the first husband commits abomination if he lays with her again. This is still true. Jesus was not negating anything Moses said, but clarifying a common misperception about what Moses said. And correcting them for the idea that they thought they could put away thier wives for any reason.

    No human being can live up to the perfection of the law and that is why Jesus came and did what we cannot do.
    There are plenty who argue that full sanctification is possible, I understand the can of worms that opens up. I'll suffice to respond with two statements. First, it is humanly impossible to be infinate in purity and righteousness as is our Maker. No matter how good we can become, we are infinately different from Him. Second, there is such a thing as sanctification and it increasingly clear that an apostate arm of the christian arena is advocating a sanctificationless "gospel". The need to define what perfection means for the christian is imperative. Is it possible to cease from sin...to be perfect as He is perfect? We need to define what that means if it indeed is possible.

    Our righteousness and salvation is in Him alone.
    An eternal absolute!

    We respond to His GIFT with our love for Him and others above self.
    yep, and those two things cover every nook and cranny of the entire spectrum of human thought and activity and behavior.

    The problem the pharisees had and many people who hold to the law keeping have is that they think they have some level of holiness or righteousness in following the law and trample love on the floor of their works.
    That is by no means exclusive to those trying to follow the law. Self-righteousness has tentacles in every arena of human endevour...nor is it adequate to make a sweeping statement regarding the hearts of individuals in any group

    Again, the "following" of the law can be done for a spectrum of reasons, self-righteousness only being one. Another reason may be that God's precepts, spoken of almost ad nauseum in Psalm 119, inform one of the rightness of a particular aspect of the law which results in obedience.

    Even though Paul is clear that the law is not of faith, he also stated that it is not the hearers of the law that are just befor God, but the doers of the law that are just. The idea is that faith may lead us to obey the law, but obeying the law does not necessarily come from faith. faith results in obedience, but obedience does not necessitate faith....and without faith it is impossible to please God. I would argue that without faith it is impossible to obey the law. "The righteous man will live by faith".


    Our salvation is in our faith in Him - trusting Him - loving Him. Doing the opposite of what Adam and Eve tossed aside to satisfy the desires of their own hearts.
    Yes, yes, but faith is much more than is adequate to just call trust. What makes us believe and trust?.....evidence and substance. Faith is the substance of what is hoped for and the evidence of what is unseen. That is why faith without works is dead. Faith defined is the substance of what is hoped for....when we hope for something and receive the substance of it, what does that mean? It is the evidence of what is unseen....when we examine evidence and although we do not see the outcome (the substance) we can believe and hope that it is there. Works is when we step out and stand on the evidence, receive the substance and thus validate that our trust is not in vain. That is faith....saving faith. The works are trusting and obeying...that's it

    So, how does the law come into play here? Simple, by using our faith, we are informed about how to conduct ourselves. When we are guided by the spirit to act in a certain way and then see the verification in the law, we rejoice. Or, when we look upon an aspect of the law, and apply our faith to it...God gives us understanding and we walk in it and also rejoice.

    Remember Isaiah chapter 1? it says, "come let us reason together saith the Lord, though your sins are as scarlet they will be white as snow..." God wants us to get it, he wants us to understand. He wants to take our body mind and soul all along for the ride. that's why we can look at Solomon and see that when he says things like "with all thy getting get thee understanding" and all he says about wisdom, we can integrate it and see that it must also be true.

    I get terribly discouraged when believers suggest that having understanding (human reason) is anathema...and that we are trying to make our own salvation through our own wisdom and understanding. When scripture says "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding and He shall make straight your paths" it means that we do not know our future or the road ahead in life, but we must leave that in His hands and not try to make some path for ourselves....it is not referring to disengaging our minds.

    Such folks rely very heavily on their ability to quote and recall scripture and validate scripture with scripture with fluid speed and agility. but often they don't perceive the meaning behind what is being said, they use scriptural terms withut stopping to inderstand the real definitions of those words.

    None of the patriarchs or women in the OT who were lifted up as holy by God were revered for their keeping of the law - they were held up by God because they trusted Him.
    They were held up as having faith and hope (interesting to define)....Abraham believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness. See above.


    Jesus said that all the laws were summed up in the two main commandments and if anyone did those, they fulfilled them all.
    Summed up, not replaced.

    Semantics plays a big role in most disagreements around here. They are really important. And if we don't clarify meaning, we can agree when we really don't agree and we can disagree when we really don't disagree.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    "
    Making demands regarding behavior though should be differentiated from recognizing truth and sound doctrine.
    Very much so...it's only revealed truth, given to us by grace through faith, that enables us to obey the law, and that as it is revealed...but revealed it is. Making demands regarding behavior isn't something I've seen coming from either camp (HR or anti HR) as a whole.

    See, here is the elephant in the room. Somehow, some folks who believe that the OT law is somehow held by believers under Grace to be "passe', non-applicable or somehow untrue" is a total misunderstanding of what believers are saying and in fact believe.
    I take that from my own experience, not from this board. A split just occurred in my home church because two leaders hold, among other things, that the law is ...quote..."a relic of the past"...and so deny that anyone pre-new covenant, save those specifically mentioned in scripture, had the Holy Spirit, or were really saved.

    It's been hard for me to watch these struggles and disputes because most of the time I see that each side seems to be talking to a brick wall because of a blinder that seems to be placed over the eyes of the disputants with respect to what each seems to believe, especially those who cling to the old ways.
    I see it as pretty much a two way street.

    Scripture says Christ is a stumbling block. So true. Actually, though, it seems to me, that each believes the same thing, which is one of the greatest ironies I have ever experienced, because neither seems to understand that fact. The old is in the new and the new is in the old, it's just all the same now in Christ!!
    Well, yeah, the same Christ that delivered the olivet discourse delivered the law/covenant to Moses on the Sinai. It was the same message then as it is now. The main message of the OT was always the gospel as was the law. The "slave woman" which represented Sinai, referred to the people under that covenant as much as the covenant itself. The law served two capacities, one for the righteous and one for the unregenerate, whereas the new covenant places the law only in the hearts of believers and excludes the unregenerate.

    To the unregenerate, the law only pointed out sin. For the righteous, they had faith and the new covenant extended back in time to cover them then....because Christ was the seed and in the seed they held their hope.


    We can never perfectly keep the law so that it had to be kept for us by the deity Himself. Actually it can't be any other way. Man's keeping of the law is just as impossible now as it was before Christ. Believing in Jesus does not imbue us with some supernatural ability to keep the law by ourselves at all times. Examine your conscience and know that is true.
    Solomon stated that there is not a righteous man on earth that only does what is right and never sins. On the other hand, John is pretty clear on the need of the believer to cease from his sin. Sanctification is real and not fakery. God does not require things of us that are not achievable....so the question is, is keeping the law achievable? Moses seemed to think so when he said that what God has set before them is not too lofty or out of reach and is achievable. So, what is it to obey the law? I content that when the scripture states "for him that knows what is right to do and does not do it, to him it is sin" it shows that sins of ignoranc are nto attributed to us, but sins in knowledge are indeed attributed to our account. Is it possible to know the right thing to do and so do it? Yep. Is that what we do?...that may well be another story, but need it be so?

    Jesus said the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Further, if we are in Him, He is in us, then we are also in the Father and the Father is in us. Does it need to be more clear than that? Complicated and hard to grasp, especially with our self centered ego, certainly. But He who is in us also said "It is finished." No work is left. It is done. Yet we continue to ask what is our work and I see God shaking His Head and Sighing....like a longsuffering parent, so He says "Love Me with all your being". "Believe my Son" (This is my Son, in Him I am well pleased.) and "love your neighbor as yourself." This sums up thousands of years and millions of words, yet we continue to pick at each other over a fulfilled contract. If you want it hard, then keep trying to be perfect. Otherwise, be at peace and wait upon the Lord, please. Listen to the spirit and do as He directs and be at peace with each other and accept the Grace we are blessed with.
    Interesting though that part of entering that rest includes "good works that He prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them.

    The rest spoken of in Hebrews and what Christ spoke of on the cross
    has two OT references attached to it...one from the creation and one from the entering of Cannan from the wilderness. Titus ch 1 v 2 states that the hope of eternal life was promised by God from before the world began.

    We see then that God placed his redemptive plan into the created order...in six days God created the heavens and the earth and on the seventh he rested. In that created order lies what is known as his rest. We do not then strive to create something new that he has not already created and made provision for (examples all through the law). It stands then that the works of faith spoken of in James and called saving faith were prepared from the foundation of the world for each one of us (wow, He was thinking of and planning for me even before the world was made). He planned out yours and my sanctification ahead of time...do you suppose in that, He planned and looked forward to us sinning in the same way that He planned out and looked forward to our good works of faith?

    In one sense, yes He did, but only in the context of our sin being recognized as depravity and causing our repentance.

    Saying that OT law has been fulfilled in no way diminishes it's validity, reality and continued importance. It is the preface and the pointer to the real story. As I've said before, fulfilling something does not make it disappear, only that it's purpose has been completed and summed up. The new has not diminished or denied or cast off the old by fulfilling it. In fulfilling it, has also incorporated it and embraced it and celebrates it. The entire OT law is a litany of pointers proving the rebelliousness of man (against the standards required by God), it defined sin and the lengths He goes to continue to reveal the Truth the Light and the Way that brings us into fellowship with Him. Embrace the law by accepting the gift of Grace and then do as the Holy Spirit counsels and directs. It may not always be the same for all men under Grace. The fact that the Lord describes His church as being a body is not just idle talk. Our bodies have millions of interconnected but individual purposes but having one head.
    Excellent! and I might add that it is a system of markers and measures for the righteous as well. As God's spirit does it's work in us, and He shows us and teaches us His precepts/principles, then we recognize the context and righteousness of the law....and seeing obedience to it in ourselves does not make us righteous, but the Spirit's fruit brings us into conformity to it.

    The whole gospel of Christ is not that we must follow the law. We can't. It is about us embracing the law in Him. He has done the work. It is left for us be beneficiaries of the Grace by His perfection and sacrifice.
    We don't embrace the law, it is our teacher. It teaches us to embrace the law giver who makes us free. "embrace the son lest He be angry ..."
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

  10. #20
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    I'm feeling bad. It's appears we've hijacked Buick Electra's thread.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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