Christians and OT Law

[Emily]

Yeshua made mention of least...as well as greatest as well:

Mat 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What you don't seem to ever understand is that NO ONE is saying not to follow them. We never have. We simply are repeating what He has said:
1. Matthew 5 - you would have to gouge out your eyes and cut off your hands to successfully follow them. That is why we need a savior.
2. Matthew 19 - even if you could follow them - it isn't enough and it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to be saved through the law.
3. That if you love God and others above self you fulfill the law. That is what God Himself said to us so why do folks keep going around believing that they are capable of following a list of rules any other way except by loving others and God above self?
4. That scripture you quoted does not say they are not in heaven it said that they would be called LEAST in the kingdom. They are still there.

We got 1000 years coming!

Not unless you live through the tribulation or are beheaded in it.
Everyone who dies before the tribulation will not be participating in the 1000 reign.

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

[Wiskey Reb]

For Emily and Buick in response.

Let's look at the scriptures that Jesus was quoting When He summed up the law. Just as Christ did on the cross when he said, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me"....He was quoting scripture, so when He summed up the law He was also quoting scripture.

Those words spoken on the cross, when seen in the context of the entire passage He was quoting, are enhanced ad infinitum....so it is with His summing up of the law. So let's take a look...with special attention to what I put in bold.

Deuteronomy Ch 6.

1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

10 And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not,

11 And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

12 Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.

18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers.

19 To cast out all thine enemies from before thee, as the LORD hath spoken.

20 And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you?

21 Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand:

22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes:

23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.

24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Leviticus ch. 19: 9-18

9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the LORD.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

My point is that even the law had the right provisions in it. And the prophets definately indicated the spirit in which the law and God's precepts were to be approached. But as Paul said, the Jews did not attain because they did not approach it with faith. Faith is the key. We all know that whatever does not come from faith is sin. That is why the jews observance of the law became sin for them, as the prophets indicated. As Paul indicated, for the faithless, the law is a curse, but Christ through faith in His death and resurrection redeems us from the curse of the law.

The passages Christ quoted included the observance of law, but did not exclude love. Once again, as was Christ's practice, evidenced by His quote from the cross, His quoting was a spring board into the dynamic of the passage He was referring to.

So, Love (capitalized on purpose) springboards us into conformity with the law....because the law is an expression of God's righteous character and love....He didn't bring them out of Egypt and into the promised land and give them the law because He hated them, but because He loved them, and He loved Abraham, and He loved the Seed (again, capitized on purpose), and He loved you and me and sought to bestow His righteous character upon us. Beautiful.

Christ's words summing up of the law actually did come out of the law. Just as Christ, when He spoke of adultery, expanded the understanding of what was written, so it is here. When we look at this passage from Leviticus, for example,.....the commands that precede the quote (which Christ used to sum up the law) pretty much envelops the spectrum of human activity that regards our dealings with our "nieghbor". And the final command to love as we love ourselves is the crowning jewel on the passage. It envelops all that came before it....it does not nullify it, but completes and fulfills it to the full.

So Emily, I agree with you regarding the need to define love. I offer for the discussion two definitions of love for us to consider together if you agree to it.

Def. 1
God is love...God = love

Def. 2
Love is doing that which is in someone's ultimate, eternal best interest.....love = my neighbors best interest.


Buick,....perhaps your professor was just trying to be brief.

[Wiskey Reb]

Emily, I see you're on right now and responding. Sorry, but I've been editing as I go a bit, so I added to a couple of things. I always thnk of things to add after I've submitted my posts.

[Emily]

Emily, I see you're on right now and responding. Sorry, but I've been editing as I go a bit, so I added to a couple of things. I always thnk of things to add after I've submitted my posts.

I posted and then went out to play in the garden. Sorry I didn't see this till now. I came in for a break. Its getting hot out there.

I have posted what I believe. I do not worry about a list of rules. I let Him lead me and it is always with the spirit of love, mercy, compassion, and whatever honors Him the most. Do I sometimes get in the way and make a mess out of things? Of course I do, we all do.

But if everything I do is with a heart of love, I please Him. If there is something I am not doing that He wants me to do - He is not shy in pressing it upon my heart to do so. I tease that I used to be 6 foot tall but with God bopping me on the head to get my attention, I am a mere 4'11".

When I feel His peace and joy and love in what I do to please Him that is all I need to know and the rest, well, if you are compelled to adhere to a list then I believe you should do so.

He is the perfect parent and He will lead each according to what they need to please Him and to grow in knowing Him. It is not for me or anyone else to tell you differently.

If what you do - you do out of love and to glorify Him and not to gain a feeling of self righteousness or gives a sense of pride rather than that of being humble, then you are following His lead.

God bless you in your walk.

ETA: I am heading out to the store so I won't be back to view any response from you, if there is one, for a bit.

[Wiskey Reb]

[quote=Emily;1523498]

When I feel His peace and joy and love in what I do to please Him that is all I need to know and the rest, well, if you are compelled to adhere to a list then I believe you should do so.

As I've already stated, it's not a list of rules that I adhere to, It's the Holy Spirit. Sorry if you didn't see that in what I've stated, perhaps I didn't communicate it effectively. It's not legalism nor is it following rules to wring every drop of meaning out of scripture that we can. It's just a love for god's word and for me it harmonizes the gospel message with everything I know and experience in life.

He is the perfect parent and He will lead each according to what they need to please Him and to grow in knowing Him. It is not for me or anyone else to tell you differently.

Good enough. You brought these subjects up, I was merely responding. It's been a fruitful discussion imo.

If what you do - you do out of love and to glorify Him and not to gain a feeling of self righteousness or gives a sense of pride rather than that of being humble, then you are following His lead.

All true, and I believe I am following His lead. Thanks for your approval.

God bless you in your walk.

Thanks, and the sentiment is sincerely mutual.

Happy gardening...we're doing the same.

[Emily]

All true, and I believe I am following His lead. Thanks for your approval.



Thanks, and the sentiment is sincerely mutual.

Happy gardening...we're doing the same.

I didn't intend to make any of my statements appear as though I were disapproving or not of what you said. I was merely sharing the way I see things.

I also didn't get the impression you were looking for anyone's approval but if you were, then happy to make you feel 'approved.' LOL

[Wiskey Reb]

I didn't intend to make any of my statements appear as though I were disapproving or not of what you said. I was merely sharing the way I see things.

I also didn't get the impression you were looking for anyone's approval but if you were, then happy to make you feel 'approved.' LOL

There's only one vote of approval I'm looking for, and I think I have it. I didn't get there on my own, it's an elected position.

[Emily]

There's only one vote of approval I'm looking for, and I think I have it. I didn't get there on my own, it's an elected position.

That is what I thought.

Now, as for the 'elected' part - God elects ALL to come to a saving faith. It is man's free will that stands between them agreeing with God or choosing to reject His offer.

If you want to have this discussion though - we definitely need to move to another thread.

[Wiskey Reb]

That is what I thought.

Now, as for the 'elected' part - God elects ALL to come to a saving faith. It is man's free will that stands between them agreeing with God or choosing to reject His offer.

If you want to have this discussion though - we definitely need to move to another thread.

Hey! I thought I was making a funny and like a bull in a bait shop I knocked a whole can of worms off the shelf.

yep, definately for a different thread and a different day. Great topic though.

[Buick Electra]

Wiskey and Emily...I came across this site while searching for something for my homework. It's lengthy and I don't have the time to read it right now but I thought you might like to take a gander.

does the NT contradict the Hebrew Bible in its discussions of the 'passing away' of the Mosaic Law?


2. Does 'eternal' (olam) mean 'unchangeable', when applied to the Law?


The curious thing about this issue is that it is a little unclear what the assertion of 'eternal law' really means…

Historically, those who have argued the most tenaciously about the Mosaic law being still in-force and applicable eternally were some of the formative Jewish rabbis. But oddly enough, the element of change and annulment of specific commands of the mosaic law can be documented (1) within the Mosaic corpus, (2) within the OT/Tanaak, (3) in post-biblical Judaism, and (4) absolutely within Rabbinic Judaism! Let's survey some of this data on the mutability of the Mosaic Law.

Mosaic Law changed within the lifetime of Moses.

Much much more http://christianthinktank.com/finaltorah.html

HOPEFULLY, I'll be able to get this homework done by Wednesday so I'll have some time to read the whole thing.