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Thread: Christians and OT Law

  1. #41
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    Cool, I'll take a look later tonight. For now though it's back to the garden.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily View Post
    What you don't seem to ever understand is that NO ONE is saying not to follow them. We never have. We simply are repeating what He has said:
    1. Matthew 5 - you would have to gouge out your eyes and cut off your hands to successfully follow them. That is why we need a savior.
    2. Matthew 19 - even if you could follow them - it isn't enough and it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to be saved through the law.

    Who is talking about salvation by works of the law??? The Law points out sin; powerless to save. Do we continue to sin? You know the answer to that one. Why do you always infer that keeping His commands is an attempt to earn salvation?

    3. That if you love God and others above self you fulfill the law. That is what God Himself said to us so why do folks keep going around believing that they are capable of following a list of rules any other way except by loving others and God above self?
    4. That scripture you quoted does not say they are not in heaven it said that they would be called LEAST in the kingdom. They are still there.

    And the "least" is by your choice...to break or to observe and instruct? No brainer.


    Not unless you live through the tribulation or are beheaded in it.
    Everyone who dies before the tribulation will not be participating in the 1000 reign.

    Revelation 20

    The Thousand Years

    1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
    Really? You have to live through the tribulation or be beheaded to enter His Kingdom? Those who die in Yeshua beforehand will not be raised into His Kingdom?

    When He gathers His elect from the four winds, where do they go? Oblivion? So, if you died today, when would you expect your resurrection to take place...AFTER the 1000 years?

    Just curious.

  3. #43
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    One needs to consider that when one dies, there is no more time. Time is irrelevant.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    One needs to consider that when one dies, there is no more time. Time is irrelevant.
    But why the term 1000 years...the BIG sabbath...? It's all in Scripture for a reason...and then the "8th. Day"...when it seems time will truly be irrelevant at that point; new heavens and new earth!

  5. #45
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    The thousand year time is on earth, thus time is relevant.

    My take on when we die is that in the blink of an eye we are at the last judgment. That could be, let's assume for argument purpose, 10,000 years from now. If you and I passed away at this very moment, in the next moment, for us, would be 10,000 years from now, but we have no sense of that as we passed into eternity upon our physical death. No time and scripture says the dead know nothing. Don't have to know anything as knowing implies time and we are outside of time.

    I often wondered about the "sleeping with fathers" that we see mentioned in scripture. When speaking to mortals, we have a sense of time, so that would make sense...in time we are asleep to those alive.

    Just a thought.

  6. #46
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    Default And this is why I no longer

    believe that the Bible, as we know it today, is the perfect, without fault, word of God:

    and Paul said "that which does not come from faith is sin"
    That is simply wrong. God says to us in the Old Testament, Come Let us Reason Together. He never indicates to us that we are to leave our brains at the door. Yes, faith is necessary. But not everything that isn't faith is SIN!

    As far as the OT covenant goes, practicing Jews are still under the Covenant. If they don't recognize Yeshua as Messiah, it's not necessarily blind stubbornness or choice on their part. Do you think GOD will void the contract he made with them when they don't know it's been completed? Not a chance.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowlady View Post
    believe that the Bible, as we know it today, is the perfect, without fault, word of God:



    That is simply wrong. God says to us in the Old Testament, Come Let us Reason Together. He never indicates to us that we are to leave our brains at the door. Yes, faith is necessary. But not everything that isn't faith is SIN!

    As far as the OT covenant goes, practicing Jews are still under the Covenant. If they don't recognize Yeshua as Messiah, it's not necessarily blind stubbornness or choice on their part. Do you think GOD will void the contract he made with them when they don't know it's been completed? Not a chance.
    If a practicing Jew, still under the Mosaic Covenant, without recognizing Jesus as their Messiah... if they die before excepting Jesus as their Messiah, what would be their eternal state?


    "Blessed are the cracked, for they let light into the world". ~unknown~

  8. #48
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    Default If a practicing Jewish person

    dies before accepting Christ as Savior, his eternal fate is the same as those Jews who died before Jesus came to earth. His blood covers them the same as it covers a Christian.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampster View Post
    The thousand year time is on earth, thus time is relevant.

    My take on when we die is that in the blink of an eye we are at the last judgment. That could be, let's assume for argument purpose, 10,000 years from now. If you and I passed away at this very moment, in the next moment, for us, would be 10,000 years from now, but we have no sense of that as we passed into eternity upon our physical death. No time and scripture says the dead know nothing. Don't have to know anything as knowing implies time and we are outside of time.

    I often wondered about the "sleeping with fathers" that we see mentioned in scripture. When speaking to mortals, we have a sense of time, so that would make sense...in time we are asleep to those alive.

    Just a thought.
    I agree with you about the time issue. Time is measured by light. Jesus is the light. When leave this body, we leave the dimensions created for us in the flesh and enter into things as they really are - eternity, void of time (which was created in Genesis 1 but God existed before the institution/dimension of time)

    However, the way I understand our salvation during this age of grace, the time of the gentiles, regarding being born again (a time unique to all of human history) is that we have already been judged. We have already died to self (taken up our cross and followed Him) and been judged (through HIS righteousness, not our own) and are a NEW CREATION, co-heirs with Christ. He is the second and last Adam of which those who are born again are children of God and no longer children of men.

    The only judgment left for Christians is the Bema seat where we are judged for our works (or lack of them) regarding rewards and crowns. (1 Cor 3) 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    Jesus made it clear that salvation is impossible for any human being based on their works.
    (Matthew 19) (Isaiah 64)

    John 3:3
    In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."


    Matthew 16:24
    Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

    Galatians 2:20
    I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Romans 8:1
    [ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

    Romans 8:2
    because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

    Romans 6
    3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.


    Ephesians 4:30
    And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    2 Corinthians 5:17
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

    2 Cor 3
    7 [The Greater Glory of the New Covenant ] Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was.

    2 Cor 3
    12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


    That is why there are no liars or adulterers and such in heaven. It isn't because anyone ever accomplished living in this life void of these sins, even those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but because everyone in heaven is a new creation and covered by the righteousness of Christ, through faith.

    This whole journey from Adam and Eve to the New heaven and New Earth is about loving and trusting God above self.

    From the Garden of Eden to the Garden of Gethsemane it has always been about loving and trusting God above self. And each human being who reaches the age of accountability with the mental capacity to know right from wrong is given the same choice Adam and Eve were given - trust God or trust self. If we trust God and seek His will be done as Jesus did, than our debts are paid and we are redeemed. If we trust self and love self above Him, then we will pay our own debt and receive our OWN will be done in our eternal state.

    If we look at the lives / fruit of those who are born again and rest their faith in Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone we should see a light of peace and joy radiating from them. A love that goes the extra mile, often. A continuing growth of their faith and walk in becoming more like Him. 1 John is an excellent book for personal inspection on knowing if we are or are not 'in the faith.'

    If someone who claims to be a Christian but is content in continuous sin such as anger, hate, alcohol abuse, lying, etc, then I would be concerned that they do not walk with the Holy Spirit (not saved) because He makes those things very uncomfortable and we find that they don't have the same attraction as they once did and no longer something to be tolerated. We will fail, often, but each time He lovingly corrects us and reminds of His way and we learn and grow in our walk with Him.

    We will know one another by the fruit of the Holy Spirit that is obvious in our lives. If it is not there, I don't care how much someone stomps their feet and tells you they are too a Christian, the evidence is in the fruit. (Gal 5)

    I apologize for the rambling.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by willowlady View Post
    dies before accepting Christ as Savior, his eternal fate is the same as those Jews who died before Jesus came to earth. His blood covers them the same as it covers a Christian.
    Can you please provide scripture to support your position?

    I have not found that to be the case.

    God has His promise to Israel as a nation, but to the individual, they remain in their fallen state until they receive their Messiah, personally.

    I think Luke 16 would be one of the strongest messages to support that lineage does not guarantee salvation.
    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
    Last edited by Emily; 05-25-2011 at 09:17 AM.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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