Christians and OT Law

[Heartofdixie]

dies before accepting Christ as Savior, his eternal fate is the same as those Jews who died before Jesus came to earth. His blood covers them the same as it covers a Christian.

So are you saying that there are 2 ways for Jews to get into heaven? They get to choose either the Mosaic Covenant, with the blood of bulls and goats,.. or they get to choose the blood of Christ, the Perfect lamb of God? They get 2 choices?

I have always thought that their was only "one" way to the Father, and that was through Jesus, so your answer is confusing to me.

A Christian is justified by the blood of Christ, because they believe and accept that He shed His blood for their sins. Now, since Christ has come, and offered Himself up for a perfect sin offering... if a Jewish person does not believe in the antoining sacrifice of Jesus, or believe that He is who He says he is..., doesn't that make them an unbeliever, or in plainer terms, (anit-Christ) against Christ... just like any other unbeliever?

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

Then they said to him, what shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, ‘This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent' (John 6:28,29).


Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son (John 3:18).

And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent (John 17:3).

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him (John 3:36).

[Red Baron]

believe that the Bible, as we know it today, is the perfect, without fault, word of God:



That is simply wrong. God says to us in the Old Testament, Come Let us Reason Together. He never indicates to us that we are to leave our brains at the door. Yes, faith is necessary. But not everything that isn't faith is SIN!

As far as the OT covenant goes, practicing Jews are still under the Covenant. If they don't recognize Yeshua as Messiah, it's not necessari ly blind stubbornness or choice on their part. Do you think GOD will void the contract he made with them when they don't know it's been completed? Not a chance.

I have to totally disagree with this line of reasoning. God does not judge people based on their ethnic or racial credentials. You are judged by your personal relationalship with Jesus Christ. If this was true then Jesus would not have had to come to earth and die on the cross. You are simply eaching another gospel which is not a gospel. You need to read the New Testament.

[Emily]

Really? You have to live through the tribulation or be beheaded to enter His Kingdom? Those who die in Yeshua beforehand will not be raised into His Kingdom?

When He gathers His elect from the four winds, where do they go? Oblivion? So, if you died today, when would you expect your resurrection to take place...AFTER the 1000 years?

Just curious.

We were discussing the millennium kingdom. I posted scripture about the millennium kingdom.

If you disagree with scripture - take it up with the one who wrote it. I am not adding to or taking away from what it says.

It occurs just before the final judgments then the New Heaven and the New Earth.

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

ETA:
A few verses down in the same chapter:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So clearly those who die before the millennial are not in the 1000 year reign.

[119]

Emily, something to consider about Rev. 20. Yes, it specifically calls out those that are beheaded as inclusive of the first resurrection, but it does not specifically state that believers who have died who were not beheaded are excluded from the first resurrection.

Daniel 12 discusses this as well, so does Is. 26. The first resurrection includes all believers, but does not include unbelievers. The Great White Throne judgement happens at the second resurrection in which all are resurrected and judged, including unbelievers.

The Sabbath reign is promised all over the place in scripture, such as Hebrews 4, or Job 5:19.

Even Paul states that ALL (believers) will be changed at His return (1 Thes 4:13-1, not just those who were beheaded.

Just some things to consider,

Shalom,
jon

[Emily]

Emily, something to consider about Rev. 20. Yes, it specifically calls out those that are beheaded as inclusive of the first resurrection, but it does not specifically state that believers who have died who were not beheaded are excluded from the first resurrection.

Daniel 12 discusses this as well, so does Is. 26. The first resurrection includes all believers, but does not include unbelievers. The Great White Throne judgement happens at the second resurrection in which all are resurrected and judged, including unbelievers.

The Sabbath reign is promised all over the place in scripture, such as Hebrews 4, or Job 5:19.

Even Paul states that ALL (believers) will be changed at His return (1 Thes 4:13-1, not just those who were beheaded.

Just some things to consider,

Shalom,
jon

I cannot embrace your interpretation.

The scripture makes two clear distinctions of who is there and who is not.

To try to make any other assumptions would be well, presumptuous and I think it is safer to just take it at its word.

I believe that the scriptures make it clear that the 1000 years are the final chapter in dealing with Israel.

As for the great white throne judgment Christians are not judged there. Those who have been born again a new creation have already died and been judged by Christ's righteousness and the only other judgment for a Christian who is a new creation is a judgment for our rewards and crowns (or lack of them)

Romans 8:1
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

1 Cor 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Romans 6
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1. John 3:3
   Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. ”
2. 1 Peter 1:23
   For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Jesus said we are to take up our cross and follow Him and we are to be born again. That means we die to self and are born again a new creation, a child of God to the second and last Adam (Jesus).

The millennium kingdom is for those who are involved with the tribulation one way or another. Those who die before the tribulation who are Christians are with the Lord in heaven, in spirit. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When those who are born again leave these bodies, we enter eternity where time has no measure. Time is measured by the light and since Jesus is the light, when we are in His presence, we live at the speed of light which is to mean time is no longer measured (definition of eternity). Those who are not believers will remain in the grave until judgment.

That is my understanding and I have considered those who teach as you do and I do not see scripture making that case.

[ActionJackson]

Not meaning to start an argument but I fear one will ensue so I'm starting this where it would probably have ended up. I had to laugh when I pulled up my syllabus for my next class entitled "OT use in the NT" and came across this outline.....

Well this should be an interesting class with us not only addressing the above but utilizing pesher and midrash. I'll keep you posted.

Thank you. That outline is actually one of the best I've seen on the subject. Torah-keeping and Christianity are two different belief systems. A Christian looks directly to Jesus Christ and seeks His example while Torah-keepers place themselves under the authority of the Old Testament Law.

The following verse makes the distinction crystal clear for anyone with the eyes to see and the ears to hear:

John 1:17, "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

John 7:19, "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"
I don't believe that all Torah yokers fall into this category but I do believe that there is an underlying element within the Messianic membership who would love to "kill" Jesus all over again.

Romans 5:21, "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Al Swearengen]

I don't believe that all Torah yokers fall into this category but I do believe that there is an underlying element within the Messianic membership who would love to "kill" Jesus all over again.

Yowzer!

Kill Him with obedience?

[ActionJackson]

So are you saying that there are 2 ways for Jews to get into heaven? They get to choose either the Mosaic Covenant, with the blood of bulls and goats,.. or they get to choose the blood of Christ, the Perfect lamb of God? They get 2 choices?

I have always thought that their was only "one" way to the Father, and that was through Jesus, so your answer is confusing to me.

A Christian is justified by the blood of Christ, because they believe and accept that He shed His blood for their sins. Now, since Christ has come, and offered Himself up for a perfect sin offering... if a Jewish person does not believe in the antoining sacrifice of Jesus, or believe that He is who He says he is..., doesn't that make them an unbeliever, or in plainer terms, (anit-Christ) against Christ... just like any other unbeliever?

You are correct. There is one Door that leads to the Kingdom of Heaven: belief and faith in Jesus Christ plus NOTHING.

Mark 16:16, ""He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John 3:16-18, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Anyone who teaches that there are TWO ways to enter God's Kingdom is a teacher of false doctrine for they reject the clear teachings of Jesus Christ, John, and Mark.

John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

[ActionJackson]

Yowzer!

Kill Him with obedience?

A tad bit off topic but if you say so.

Remember ... I said "some" ... not all.

[devonevents]

Speaking of off topic Action Jackson, How does John 7:19 support your position?




JOHN 7:16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”


You can see clearly here that the only people who see who Jesus really is are the people who do the will of God. Or more plainly speaking Follow Torah which is the will of God.

It was the ones who didn't keep Torah who wanted to kill Jesus in this instance.