Who's More Righteous?

[ActionJackson]

Two men stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement Day. Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?:

1) The thief who was crucified next to Jesus Christ; who publicly declared His belief that Jesus Christ was the Lord; and whom Christ promised would "be with Me in paradise?" Luke 23:43 (Remember: the thief lived a life of lawlessness and received the death penalty as a result).

or

2) A man who diligently kept all 613 "Torah" laws; rested on every sabbath day; sacrificed a lamb without blemish as commanded by the Torah; and even wore his tzitzits religiously but who didn't trust in the power of Christ's blood and the free gift of grace?

Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven?

[Al Swearengen]

What if the thief would have been able to come down off the cross? Do you think maybe he would have gladly obeyed with his new chance at life?

Your analogy is flawed and severely biased. The pattern is always grace through faith, works then follow...faith without works is dead.

Any law...whether it come from man or Yah cannot save a person...NADA, ZIP, ZILCH....it can ONLY point out sin and direct you into the Way of living right...at least Yah's law (not man's)!

Had the man in your second scenario kept the entire law flawlessly his entire life...and did no sin...he could have made it. Not one "man" has done this...

But One did in our stead...Yeshua, our Salvation!

[ActionJackson]

What if the thief would have been able to come down off the cross? Do you think maybe he would have gladly obeyed with his new chance at life?

Your analogy is flawed and severely biased. The pattern is always grace through faith, works then follow...faith without works is dead.

Any law...whether it come from man or Yah cannot save a person...NADA, ZIP, ZILCH....it can ONLY point out sin and direct you into the Way of living right...at least Yah's law (not man's)!

Had the man in your second scenario kept the entire law flawlessly his entire life...and did no sin...he could have made it. Not one "man" has done this...

But One did in our stead...Yeshua, our Salvation!

The bottom line is that faith in Jesus Christ vastly trumps the mere keeping of the 613 Torah laws.

Yes ... "faith without works is dead."

We need to be mindful of the Two Great Commandments of Jesus Christ: Love God with all of your heart, mind, and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself.

But let's take a closer look at James and the "works" he's talking about:

James 2:14-17, "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

He's not at all talking about keeping the Mosaic law. He's talking about helping our neighbors, the sick, the elderly, the young, the needy, the destitute, etc.

[Al Swearengen]

What is sin? Scripture please.

What did we repent from?

Thanks!

[ActionJackson]

What is sin? Scripture please.

What did we repent from?

Thanks!

Most folks will take a single verse out of the following passage in an effort to define sin and they are correct in so doing but we should be mindful of the entire passage and the context in which the definition is used:

1 John 3:1-11 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

[Al Swearengen]

And IF we sin (transgress)...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

What is the "old" commandment fron the beginning? And...as I asked before, what IS sin and what did we repent from?

[labellavita]

The bottom line is that faith in Jesus Christ vastly trumps the mere keeping of the 613 Torah laws.

He's not at all talking about keeping the Mosaic law. He's talking about helping our neighbors, the sick, the elderly, the young, the needy, the destitute, etc.

you are going to think me a heretic, but that's par for the course.

I would love for you to show me ONCE where Yah tells Israel or those who sojourn with Israel that they need to BELIEVE in Yeshua, a cross, or a resurrection to be "saved." You won't find it.

What He does tell those who choose to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is to choose life. Before us we have blessings or curses. We can choose righteousness, which = blessings, being made safe (incorrectly translated as "salvation" - it doesn't quite mean that), or we can choose to live as the world lives, which = curses.

We are told that if we keep His commandments, it will be righteousness to us (Deut 6:25). I'm reading and no where have I seen where Yah expects us to keep the commandments perfectly, that is a NT concept. He expects to do our best, to repent for mistakes.

When Israel acted like the nations they basically chose curses. If you and I claim Him, yet act like the nations we too have chosen curses. Israel is no worse than the nations, those of backslidden Israel are basically a barometer for how far the world is from Yah's will. And one day, those unrighteous gentiles will realize how it was THEIR very own iniquity that was the problem (think of pagan gentiles/lawless xtians killing righteous Jews throughout the millennia). Gotta read the OT for yourself and stop with the regurgitated doctrine of lawlessness.

You fool yourself to think that the Torah/613 isn't about chesed, loving kindness. Its all about loving your neighbor! Imagine what a wonderful world we would live in if no one murdered, no one stole, no one coveted, it would be amazing! Keeping Torah is loving your neighbor! And for the record, the first time loving your neighbor was brought up is in Torah! Its not a "new" thing.

Faith in Jesus is more important than the faith of Jesus? Are you so sure about that?

I'd love for you to show me where in the OT it is stated. If its ESSENTIAL for all of our salvation, it should be there, repeatedly, 2-3 witnesses AT LEAST.

[ActionJackson]

you are going to think me a heretic, but that's par for the course.

I would love for you to show me ONCE where Yah tells Israel or those who sojourn with Israel that they need to BELIEVE in Yeshua, a cross, or a resurrection to be "saved." You won't find it.

What He does tell those who choose to follow the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is to choose life. Before us we have blessings or curses. We can choose righteousness, which = blessings, being made safe (incorrectly translated as "salvation" - it doesn't quite mean that), or we can choose to live as the world lives, which = curses.

We are told that if we keep His commandments, it will be righteousness to us (Deut 6:25). I'm reading and no where have I seen where Yah expects us to keep the commandments perfectly, that is a NT concept. He expects to do our best, to repent for mistakes.

When Israel acted like the nations they basically chose curses. If you and I claim Him, yet act like the nations we too have chosen curses. Israel is no worse than the nations, those of backslidden Israel are basically a barometer for how far the world is from Yah's will. And one day, those unrighteous gentiles will realize how it was THEIR very own iniquity that was the problem (think of pagan gentiles/lawless xtians killing righteous Jews throughout the millennia). Gotta read the OT for yourself and stop with the regurgitated doctrine of lawlessness.

You fool yourself to think that the Torah/613 isn't about chesed, loving kindness. Its all about loving your neighbor! Imagine what a wonderful world we would live in if no one murdered, no one stole, no one coveted, it would be amazing! Keeping Torah is loving your neighbor! And for the record, the first time loving your neighbor was brought up is in Torah! Its not a "new" thing.

Faith in Jesus is more important than the faith of Jesus? Are you so sure about that?

I'd love for you to show me where in the OT it is stated. If its ESSENTIAL for all of our salvation, it should be there, repeatedly, 2-3 witnesses AT LEAST.

I follow the religion of Jesus Christ ... not the religion of Moses. I'm a Christian ... not a Jew. If I were a Jew I would fully agree with you but since I'm a Christian I must humbly disagree with you.

John 1:17,
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 2:8-9,
"8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

[seekingHistruth]

What if the thief would have been able to come down off the cross? Do you think maybe he would have gladly obeyed with his new chance at life?

Your analogy is flawed and severely biased. The pattern is always grace through faith, works then follow...faith without works is dead.

Any law...whether it come from man or Yah cannot save a person...NADA, ZIP, ZILCH....it can ONLY point out sin and direct you into the Way of living right...at least Yah's law (not man's)!

Had the man in your second scenario kept the entire law flawlessly his entire life...and did no sin...he could have made it. Not one "man" has done this...

But One did in our stead...Yeshua, our Salvation!

Yes, and Al nailed it in post #2.

[Red Baron]

What if the thief would have been able to come down off the cross? Do you think maybe he would have gladly obeyed with his new chance at life?

Your analogy is flawed and severely biased. The pattern is always grace through faith, works then follow...faith without works is dead.

Any law...whether it come from man or Yah cannot save a person...NADA, ZIP, ZILCH....it can ONLY point out sin and direct you into the Way of living right...at least Yah's law (not man's)!

Had the man in your second scenario kept the entire law flawlessly his entire life...and did no sin...he could have made it. Not one "man" has done this...

But One did in our stead...Yeshua, our Salvation!

You need to get on "Dancing With The Stars" because your dancing around the question is remarkable.