Who's More Righteous?

[ActionJackson]

Fulfilled? As in our sacrifice for our sins, but NOT done away. Heaven and earth are still here...the two witnesses He called to remind you!

I always like to toss this in to folks who hate his Torah and say "nobody can keep His Torah". Always makes their eyes cross!

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Now, isn't that something?

Was that prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? Is there a similar description of anyone post-crucifixion? I'm all for living an upright life and following the Two Great Commandments of Jesus Christ. I'm all for it.

[Al Swearengen]

Was that prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? Is there a similar description of anyone post-crucifixion? I'm all for living an upright life and following the Two Great Commandments of Jesus Christ. I'm all for it.

I just pulled that verse to shut up all those who say that "nobody could keep Torah". Yah says otherwise.

And even they, though BLAMELESS in His commands, still needed Yeshua.

So AJ, you may think twice before making those claims that it can't be done. For salvation? No. But they were blameless in TORAH.

Let Yah be true, and every man...

[Al Swearengen]

I know what you're saying but wouldn't creating a "visual reminder" be similar to a Catholic statue of Mary or a Mormon temple or an Orthodox crucifix?

Not even in the same ballpark...unless you can find a passage that commands such behavior as making a statue of Mary or a orthodox crucifix.

What is your hang-up with tzit-tzit...too "burdensome"?

[ActionJackson]

I just pulled that verse to shut up all those who say that "nobody could keep Torah". Yah says otherwise.

And even they, though BLAMELESS in His commands, still needed Yeshua.

So AJ, you may think twice before making those claims that it can't be done. For salvation? No. But they were blameless in TORAH.

Let Yah be true, and every man...

Then, by all means you should focus on "keeping Torah." I'm saved by grace and shall remained focused on Jesus Christ. You do what you feel is best for you and I'll do what I know is best for me.

[ActionJackson]

Not even in the same ballpark...unless you can find a passage that commands such behavior as making a statue of Mary or a orthodox crucifix.

What is your hang-up with tzit-tzit...too "burdensome"?

Mary was an upright woman who "kept Torah." Why not use her as a reminder that you should keep the law as she did? As for tzitzits ... I don't feel I need to make a "show" of my "righteousness." Hey everyone ... look at me ... I'm wearing some tzitzits.

By the way ... you need to make sure that the knots are all in the correct places if they're going to really work:




Rosary beads:

[seekingHistruth]

I'm with you there. Nobody on earth can keep the 613 laws of the "Torah" (614 if you count the wearing of the tzitzit). I, too, love reading the entire Word of God and the history contained therein. I'm especially thankful that Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. I would be completely hopeless had he not.

FWIW, the "613" were written out by Maimonides, from my understanding.

Though there is a Scripture verse beside each, there seems to be a fair bit of repetition in what he put forth, so there aren't actually even 613 in the list (and the fringes are included in those; so no, it does not make an extra one to make 614). Also, the Maimonides version sometimes differs somewhat from what the Scripture verses actually say. If it can't be supported by Scripture, I want nothing to do with it.

It is actually not hard at all to keep the Torah instructions that apply to you.

Do I still sin sometimes? I sure do and I wish I didn't nearly as much as I do. But that's where my repentance and His abundant grace comes in. I have said this so many times, but I think it bears repeating: I do not obey Him to attain salvation. Attaining salvation by anything I do is an absolute impossibility! I only obey Him because I love Him, just as I expect my children to obey me if they love me.

And yes, I agree with you; you and I both would be completely hopeless had our Messiah not fulfilled His Father's law perfectly, simply because there is no way we could live a sinless life (and rubbing the grain between his fingers on Shabbat was not transgressing His Father's will, but it most certainly was transgressing the Talmud/the "oral Law" in an "in your face" sort of way, might I add).

[seekingHistruth]

Mary was an upright woman who "kept Torah." Why not use her as a reminder that you should keep the law as she did? As for tzitzits ... I don't feel I need to make a "show" of my "righteousness." Hey everyone ... look at me ... I'm wearing some tzitzits.

By the way ... you need to make sure that the knots are all in the correct places if they're going to really work:




Rosary beads:

We are not to imitate Mary; we are to imitate our Saviour.

As far as tassels go, although I wouldn't be surprised if there would be a few people who would be wearing them "to make a show of [their] righteousness", I'm sure the vast majority of the people who wear them are only wearing them out of obedience to Him, though I can only speak for myself. With regards to the tying of tassels/fringes; from my understanding there is no one correct way to tie them according to Scripture, nor is the shade of blue defined or the colour of the other strings.

I certainly don't wear mine to "show off". It is only out of obedience simply because He has said to. What is so difficult to understand about that?

[Carol]

Thanks for further expounding on the tzit tzits SeekingHisTruth. Of those I've met who wear them...none wore them for "show". They are worn humbly by those who do it in love and obedience to their Father.

As for the difference in the rosary beads and tzit tzits...rosary beads are NOT scriptural. No where have I found them in His word. AJ you asked about a righteous person after the crucifixion and resurrection...let me do a google search. (Amazing what you can find when googling. ) This has been an interesting discussion; I've enjoyed it. Carol

[seekingHistruth]

Thanks for further expounding on the tzit tzits SeekingHisTruth. Of those I've met who wear them...none wore them for "show". They are worn humbly by those who do it in love and obedience to their Father.

Pleasure, Carol.
And that has been my experience as well. Thank you for sharing.

[ActionJackson]

FWIW, the "613" were written out by Maimonides, from my understanding.

Though there is a Scripture verse beside each, there seems to be a fair bit of repetition in what he put forth, so there aren't actually even 613 in the list (and the fringes are included in those; so no, it does not make an extra one to make 614). Also, the Maimonides version sometimes differs somewhat from what the Scripture verses actually say. If it can't be supported by Scripture, I want nothing to do with it.

It is actually not hard at all to keep the Torah instructions that apply to you.

Do I still sin sometimes? I sure do and I wish I didn't nearly as much as I do. But that's where my repentance and His abundant grace comes in. I have said this so many times, but I think it bears repeating: I do not obey Him to attain salvation. Attaining salvation by anything I do is an absolute impossibility! I only obey Him because I love Him, just as I expect my children to obey me if they love me.

And yes, I agree with you; you and I both would be completely hopeless had our Messiah not fulfilled His Father's law perfectly, simply because there is no way we could live a sinless life (and rubbing the grain between his fingers on Shabbat was not transgressing His Father's will, but it most certainly was transgressing the Talmud/the "oral Law" in an "in your face" sort of way, might I add).

Thank you very much for a civil response. You and I know that that's a very rare thing where Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots are concerned. I prefer to discuss issues respectfully and in a mature manner but 95% of the Messianics seem snide, bitter, angry, self-righteous, etc. and it ends up dragging me down. Anyway ... thanks.

Let's take a look at the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."


When God rested after the 6 day creation He did absolutely nothing on the 7th day. Don't get me wrong. I'm fine with the fact that Jesus did what was necessary in spite of the letter of the law. That's actually my point. I simply believe that those who are concerned with keeping the letter miss the spirit of the law.



Jesus Christ left us with His two Great Commandments. Love and worship Him and treat our neighbors well and help them when they're in need. On these two commands hang all the law and the prophets.