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Thread: How Do We Know that Holy Scripture is Truly the Word of God?

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    Thumbs up How Do We Know that Holy Scripture is Truly the Word of God?

    .
    How Do We Know that Holy Scripture is Truly the Word of God?

    Nowhere in Holy Scripture is there any evidence that God instructed man to write and compile the Holy Bible. In view of this, how can we be assured that the Bible is truly the Word of God, and not a mere fabrication of man?

    We know that Jesus is both God and man, and that He descended from Heaven to open the gates of Heaven and save our souls. Also, we know that He suffered, died and arose from the dead three days later. Further we know that Jesus founded a Church upon Pope St. Peter (and continued under the earthly guidance of his successors), and that this has been the teaching of the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church since the beginning (evidence of that can be found in the writings extant of the Fathers, in Mat 16:18, etc.). Further, the Apostles and Fathers taught consistently that Jesus told the Apostles (the first bishops of His Catholic Church) “He that hears you, hears me.” (evidence of that can be found also in the writings of the Fathers and in Luk 10:16). We know also from the teachings of the Apostles and the writings of the Fathers that the Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth (additional evidence of this is provided in 1Ti 3:15).

    Based upon this we know that the Holy Bible is truly the Word of God, because the Church has declared it




    The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I - 382 A.D.
    (Incorporated into the Council of Rome)


    The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

    ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

    It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.

    The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

    Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

    Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    (the rest of the decree not included here.)


    N.B. It is to be noted that the book of Baruch was considered by some Church Fathers to be a part of the book of Jeremiah and as such was not listed separately by them.

    The Decree of Damasus was affirmed by a number of Councils subsequently.


    Source:

    The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William A. Jurgens, Vol 1 pp 404-407; Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minesota, NIHIL OBSTAT, Imprimatur. Copyright 1970.


    There you have it. The Holy Bible is a Catholic book, written and defined by the Catholic Church.



    Even Martin Luther acknowledged that the Catholic Church is the true Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. Refer to his words published on a Lutheran web site as follows:

    Page 265 reads: “Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them.”

    www.orlutheran.com/html/mlsermjoh1526-1604-2.html


    The Deposit of Faith is comprised of Catholic Tradition, Holy Scripture and the Teachings of the Magisterium of the Church ---- the three legs of the Faith.

    Martin Luther lacking any apostolic teaching authority or Tradition, chose to embrace scripture --- the remaining leg. He attempted to do this by fabricating and unilaterally proclaiming the unwritten and previously untaught notion of “Scripture Alone”. He called this new creation: ‘doctrine’.

    Further, he added the word ‘alone’ to Rom 3:28 unilaterally, and boldly bragged about doing so. He proclaimed this new fabrication ‘Faith Alone’. In his letter to Melanchthon of August 1, 1521 about his fabricated ‘faith alone’, he stated:

    "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true [p.282] and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.... as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin.... No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." (emphasis added). (American Edition, Luther's Works, vol. 48,pp.281-82, edited by H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1963):

    www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=115


    Additionally, Luther deleted seven (7) books of the Holy Bible unilaterally, as a few of them got into the way of his fabricated ‘faith alone’ nonsense. They are referred to as the Deutercanonicals (Protestants refer to them incorrectly as the apocrypha. It is worthy of emphasis that the word apocrypha is Greek for ‘hidden’. As is clear from the Decree of Damasus and other sources, the deuters were not hidden.). Luther did this in spite of the fact that the seven deuters were included in the Septuagint from which both Jesus Christ and St. Paul taught (Are we to believe that Jesus would drink from a poisoned cup?). We would add that Luther did this in spite of the fact that in a number of places, the New Testament refers to items contained within the seven deuters.

    As we have demonstrated above using the words of Luther himself, he was cognizant that the Catholic Church was the true Church of Christ, and that the Catholic Church solemnly defined the books that were canonical, and yet he both added to and deducted from the Word of God. He did this contrary to the admonitions of Deu 4:2; Prov 30:5-6; Gal. 1:8; Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22: 18-19. We hasten to ask: “Martin, what happened to scripture alone?”.

    To reiterate the Holy Bible was defined solemnly by the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, and head of the Catholic Church, the ‘pillar and bulwark of truth’. It includes the deutercanonicals. The book that Protestants call the Bible today, is not the Bible --- no more than X-7 = X.

    A copy of the Holy Bible can be found at:
    www.awmach.org/BDY/dochome.htm

    Scripture Alone? Is Half the Story Sufficient?
    www.call2holiness.org/ScriptureAlone/ScriptureAlone.htm


    .
    "At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time." (Dn 12:1)

    www.call2holiness.org/iniquity.htm

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    See John 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by 300mag View Post
    See John 1
    Not only that, see Romans 10:17

    Word of God in Romans 10:17 (Rhema)

    1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
    a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
    b) speech, discourse
    2) what one has said
    b) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
    3) an utterance

    In every definition, it refers to a SPOKEN VOICE in the PRESENT TENSE.

    The bible, particularly the New Testament, and much of the Old, is based on mans interpretation of the inspired spirit.

    However, in the Old Testament, man did NOT have the Holy Spirit within Him, so any discourse was done externally by the Spoken Voice (Rhema) of God.

    If Rhema is based on the spoken word in the present tense, then what was given as inspired to someone (Paul, Peter, etc...) 2000 years ago is not necessarily dedicated to believers in 2011. We, who have the SAME spirit within us that the Apostles had, should be hearing the spoken word in the present tense of the Spirit, just as they did when they lived in antiquity.

    Many will say the bible is the Word of God, but when you leave the corrupted English translation, and go back to the original languages of the writings, and look AT the definitions in context, you will find it doesnt say that at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    .
    How Do We Know that Holy Scripture is Truly the Word of God?

    Nowhere in Holy Scripture is there any evidence that God instructed man to write and compile the Holy Bible. In view of this, how can we be assured that the Bible is truly the Word of God, and not a mere fabrication of man?

    We know that Jesus is both God and man, and that He descended from Heaven to open the gates of Heaven and save our souls. Also, we know that He suffered, died and arose from the dead three days later. Further we know that Jesus founded a Church upon Pope St. Peter (and continued under the earthly guidance of his successors), and that this has been the teaching of the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church since the beginning (evidence of that can be found in the writings extant of the Fathers, in Mat 16:18, etc.). Further, the Apostles and Fathers taught consistently that Jesus told the Apostles (the first bishops of His Catholic Church) “He that hears you, hears me.” (evidence of that can be found also in the writings of the Fathers and in Luk 10:16). We know also from the teachings of the Apostles and the writings of the Fathers that the Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth (additional evidence of this is provided in 1Ti 3:15).

    Based upon this we know that the Holy Bible is truly the Word of God, because the Church has declared it




    The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I - 382 A.D.
    (Incorporated into the Council of Rome)


    The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

    ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

    It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.

    The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.

    Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

    Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

    (the rest of the decree not included here.)


    N.B. It is to be noted that the book of Baruch was considered by some Church Fathers to be a part of the book of Jeremiah and as such was not listed separately by them.

    The Decree of Damasus was affirmed by a number of Councils subsequently.


    Source:
    The Faith of the Early Fathers, by William A. Jurgens, Vol 1 pp 404-407; Liturgical Press, Collegeville, Minesota, NIHIL OBSTAT, Imprimatur. Copyright 1970.


    There you have it. The Holy Bible is a Catholic book, written and defined by the Catholic Church.



    Even Martin Luther acknowledged that the Catholic Church is the true Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. Refer to his words published on a Lutheran web site as follows:

    Page 265 reads: “Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them.”

    www.orlutheran.com/html/mlsermjoh1526-1604-2.html


    The Deposit of Faith is comprised of Catholic Tradition, Holy Scripture and the Teachings of the Magisterium of the Church ---- the three legs of the Faith.

    Martin Luther lacking any apostolic teaching authority or Tradition, chose to embrace scripture --- the remaining leg. He attempted to do this by fabricating and unilaterally proclaiming the unwritten and previously untaught notion of “Scripture Alone”. He called this new creation: ‘doctrine’.

    Further, he added the word ‘alone’ to Rom 3:28 unilaterally, and boldly bragged about doing so. He proclaimed this new fabrication ‘Faith Alone’. In his letter to Melanchthon of August 1, 1521 about his fabricated ‘faith alone’, he stated:

    "If you are a preacher of grace, then preach a true and not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true [p.282] and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.... as long as we are here [in this world] we have to sin.... No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." (emphasis added). (American Edition, Luther's Works, vol. 48,pp.281-82, edited by H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1963):

    www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=115


    Additionally, Luther deleted seven (7) books of the Holy Bible unilaterally, as a few of them got into the way of his fabricated ‘faith alone’ nonsense. They are referred to as the Deutercanonicals (Protestants refer to them incorrectly as the apocrypha. It is worthy of emphasis that the word apocrypha is Greek for ‘hidden’. As is clear from the Decree of Damasus and other sources, the deuters were not hidden.). Luther did this in spite of the fact that the seven deuters were included in the Septuagint from which both Jesus Christ and St. Paul taught (Are we to believe that Jesus would drink from a poisoned cup?). We would add that Luther did this in spite of the fact that in a number of places, the New Testament refers to items contained within the seven deuters.

    As we have demonstrated above using the words of Luther himself, he was cognizant that the Catholic Church was the true Church of Christ, and that the Catholic Church solemnly defined the books that were canonical, and yet he both added to and deducted from the Word of God. He did this contrary to the admonitions of Deu 4:2; Prov 30:5-6; Gal. 1:8; Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22: 18-19. We hasten to ask: “Martin, what happened to scripture alone?”.

    To reiterate the Holy Bible was defined solemnly by the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on Earth, and head of the Catholic Church, the ‘pillar and bulwark of truth’. It includes the deutercanonicals. The book that Protestants call the Bible today, is not the Bible --- no more than X-7 = X.

    A copy of the Holy Bible can be found at:
    www.awmach.org/BDY/dochome.htm

    Scripture Alone? Is Half the Story Sufficient?
    www.call2holiness.org/ScriptureAlone/ScriptureAlone.htm


    .
    Isnt it funny...

    In Revelation, there are letters to 7 churches... of which Rome is only one reference, and during that time, it refers to Rome as persecutors.

    Ephesus Era of the Apostles 33 - 100
    Smyrna Era of Persecution 100 - 313
    Pergamos Era of Compromise 313 - 538
    Thyatira Era of Apostacy 538 - 1560
    Sardis Era of Reformation 1560 - 1750
    Philadelphia Era of Revival 1740 - 1910
    Laodicea Era of Lukewarmness 1910 - ?

    Pergamos was the rise of the Roman church (Catholic), and carried forth through Thyatira until the reformation took affect.

    Read closely what Revelation says about these 2 church eras.

    Pergamos:

    Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

    Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

    Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

    Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

    Rome calls the Pope's rule the Seat of Peter, but scripture calls it the Seat of Satan.

    "because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam"

    Balaam Doctrine - prostituting Gods word for wealth and notariety (Celebrity).

    This comes from the Prophet Balaam who tried to appeal to God at the behest of bribes and offers from a foreign nation to curse Israel, instead of bless them. It is using God, or God's name, kingdom, and authority for your own benefit, wealth, and fame.

    "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans"

    The Nicolatian doctrine comes from a sect of early Christianity where certain 'Christians' were seen as better than others, and thus gave themselves authority OVER the Body of Christ. It is where the concept of the Laity comes from, and in Pergamos (Rome), we see the creation of Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests who have the ultimate authority over the church, and every other 'layman' Christian.

    Ironically, this Nicolatian concept was carried over to nearly every Reformation and Protestant church, by means of Head Pastors, Elders, and Associate Pastors, with the congregations relegated to limited, or no authority.

    The Angel assigned over this church era was told that what was taking place was foul, and unrighteous, and needed to repent and return to what was originally ordained.

    Over time, as we see, they never did.

    Thyatira:

    Thyatira was the Dark and Middle Age church that led to the Reformation. It was the era of Apostacy where the Roman church (Catholic) bound itself to forcing conversion through inquisition and by the sword. Several things took place during this time, to include:

    Crusades meant to take Jerusalem, and move the Pope's authority to the Holy Land. The creation of a Holy Roman Empire, and declaration of Holy Roman Emporers (Charlamaigne), and then... the many judgments that came upon Rome, and Europe through the rise of Islam and the black plague.

    "because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

    Jezebel -
    2) the symbolic name of a woman who pretended to be a prophetess, and who, addicted to antinomianism, claimed Christian liberty of eating things sacrificed to idols

    Antinomiansim: is a belief or tendency in most religions that some therein consider existing laws as no longer applicable to themselves.

    Rome at this time prostituted itself with paganism of other religions, saying that intention over-ruled righteousness and God's universal laws. It was the time that Easter, Christmas, worship of the dead (saints), Mary worship based on Semiramus, etc... came into practice, and became tradition.

    "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

    Europe lost nearly half, to 75% of its population because of the black plague, and the latent portions of the Roman and Byzantine empires fell to Islam. Also, many generations of 'Catholics' died over the course of two centuries of crusades.

    At the latter part of the era, the Reformists began to crack the church of Thyatira, and led to the era of Sardis.
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    .
    Isnt it funny...

    In Revelation, there are letters to 7 churches... of which Rome is only one reference, and during that time, it refers to Rome as persecutors.

    Ephesus Era of the Apostles 33 - 100
    Smyrna Era of Persecution 100 - 313
    Pergamos Era of Compromise 313 - 538
    Thyatira Era of Apostacy 538 - 1560
    Sardis Era of Reformation 1560 - 1750
    Philadelphia Era of Revival 1740 - 1910
    Laodicea Era of Lukewarmness 1910 - ?
    Had you made an attempt at learning the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4), you would have learned that in Catholicism individual consecrated places of worship are referred to as ‘churches’. I am a member of St. Theresa’s Catholic Church in a particular city in USA. These individual churches collectively comprise the Catholic Church. Each of them answer to the Magisterium of the Church united with the Holy Father in the Vatican, and have a common Faith (Tradition, Holy Scripture & and the Teachings of the Church).


    It has been this way from the beginning of the Catholic Church.


    But seeking the truth is not what PROTESTantism is about. It is about elevating eisegesis to an art form, and being governed by your visceral feelings.

    Is there another religion that has as its basic creed the hatred of another religion?

    There is a certain pathos inherent in such belief system.

    Pergamos was the rise of the Roman church (Catholic), and carried forth through Thyatira until the reformation took affect.
    Once again, you care not for the truth. Read above. You have denied the premise and made personal assertions to support your eisegesis. Denied premises result in invalid conclusions.

    A cat is a four legged animal that drinks milk.
    An elephant is a four legged animal.
    Therefore, elephants drink milk.

    Obey the Will of God in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and seek the truth.

    Read closely what Revelation says about these 2 church eras.

    Pergamos:

    Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

    Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

    Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

    Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth

    Rome calls the Pope's rule the Seat of Peter, but scripture calls it the Seat of Satan.
    Non-sequitor/illogical. See my dialogue above about denied premises and invalid conclusions.

    In spite of your invalid logic, I will tell you that:

    In 2nd Thessalonians, St. Paul tells us clearly that there will be a Great Apostasy prior to the arise of the lawless one:

    "We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a "spirit," or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god-- do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? " (Cf. 2Th 2:1-5)

    Further, private prophecy tells us that there is a forthcoming Great Schism to occur in the Catholic Church very soon. The majority will go astray, and only a Remnant will remain faithful to the historical teachings of the Church. Those who leave the Church will follow the One-World New Age Religion….which will worship, the ancient gods of Egypt (which were the gods of ancient Babylon given different names). There ain’t nuthin’ new about the New Age Religion.

    Harlotry in Holy Scripture is used figuratively in referring to ‘unfaithfulness’.

    At LaSalette (approved by the Church as worthy of belief) Our Lady told us that “Rome would loose the Faith and become the seat of the Antichrist.”.

    The Faithful Remnant Catholic Church will flee. The Faithful Church will go out the same way that she came in……via the catacombs.

    It is worthy of note, that with the Protestant Revolt, many left the faith 500 years ago…and have continued since such time.

    "because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam"

    Balaam Doctrine - prostituting Gods word for wealth and notariety (Celebrity).

    This comes from the Prophet Balaam who tried to appeal to God at the behest of bribes and offers from a foreign nation to curse Israel, instead of bless them. It is using God, or God's name, kingdom, and authority for your own benefit, wealth, and fame.

    "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans"

    The Nicolatian doctrine comes from a sect of early Christianity where certain 'Christians' were seen as better than others, and thus gave themselves authority OVER the Body of Christ. It is where the concept of the Laity comes from, and in Pergamos (Rome), we see the creation of Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests who have the ultimate authority over the church, and every other 'layman' Christian.

    Ironically, this Nicolatian concept was carried over to nearly every Reformation and Protestant church, by means of Head Pastors, Elders, and Associate Pastors, with the congregations relegated to limited, or no authority.

    The Angel assigned over this church era was told that what was taking place was foul, and unrighteous, and needed to repent and return to what was originally ordained.

    Over time, as we see, they never did.

    Thyatira:

    Thyatira was the Dark and Middle Age church that led to the Reformation. It was the era of Apostacy where the Roman church (Catholic) bound itself to forcing conversion through inquisition and by the sword. Several things took place during this time, to include:

    Crusades meant to take Jerusalem, and move the Pope's authority to the Holy Land. The creation of a Holy Roman Empire, and declaration of Holy Roman Emporers (Charlamaigne), and then... the many judgments that came upon Rome, and Europe through the rise of Islam and the black plague.

    "because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

    Jezebel -
    2) the symbolic name of a woman who pretended to be a prophetess, and who, addicted to antinomianism, claimed Christian liberty of eating things sacrificed to idols

    Antinomiansim: is a belief or tendency in most religions that some therein consider existing laws as no longer applicable to themselves.

    Rome at this time prostituted itself with paganism of other religions, saying that intention over-ruled righteousness and God's universal laws. It was the time that Easter, Christmas, worship of the dead (saints), Mary worship based on Semiramus, etc... came into practice, and became tradition.

    "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

    And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

    Europe lost nearly half, to 75% of its population because of the black plague, and the latent portions of the Roman and Byzantine empires fell to Islam. Also, many generations of 'Catholics' died over the course of two centuries of crusades.

    At the latter part of the era, the Reformists began to crack the church of Thyatira, and led to the era of Sardis.
    I did not read the rest of this nonsense, as I have demonstrated that you have denied the premise(s), and that your logic is invalid. I trust that my comments above have addressed this stuff adequately.

    Now Argo, your pretzel logic would have us believe that according to the Apocalypse, there are (or were) 7 churches…..presumably 6 PROTESTant ones, and one Catholic. Read and discern the following citation from the Gospel of St. Matthew carefully:

    "He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church [n.b. one singular church], and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, andwhatever you bind on earth.shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose.on earthshall be loosed in heaven." ......... (Cf. Matthew 16:15-19)

    Argo, which of your so-called 7 “churches” was Jesus speaking of in the citation above. Clearly, He started ONE CHURCH, with ONE HEAD. Which one would that be?

    As a matter of fact Argo, which of the 40,000+ PROTESTant ecclesial communities was He speaking of? How could it be one of the 40,000 the PROTESTant ecclesial communities Argo, when you did not exist for another 1,500 years?

    The term ‘pretzel logic’ resounds in my head.

    Now Argo, read and discern the following citation from the Holy Bible (I believe that it is in the KJV book, as well.):

    1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. (n.b. he did not say that the Bible was the pillar and buylwark of the truth.....but the Church who wrote the Bible.)

    You would have us believe that there were 7 different and independent “churches” when St. John wrote the Apocalypse in about 100 A.D. If so Argo, which of the 7 “churches” is the “pillar and bulwark of truth”? Would you have us believe the God would tell us that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth…..and leave it up to us to guess which of the 7 “churches” it might be? Would you have us believe that God would come down to Earth; establish a Church; tell us that it was the pillar and bulwark of truth; die for our sins; and then leave us in mass confusion?

    While we are at it Argo, can you tell me which of the 40,000+ PROTESTant ecclesial communities (plus the Catholic Church)…and let’s not forget the self-anointed “popes” with their KJV books and their respective “churches” of one,….. is the church that St. Paul was declaring to be the “pillar and bulwark of truth”?

    Argo, read and discern the following citation carefully:

    "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Cf. Mat 18:15-17)

    You would have us believe that there were 7 different and independent “churches” when St. John wrote the Apocalypse in about 100 A.D. Argo, in the citation above, Jesus is DECLARING (not suggesting) that we obey the Church or be treated as (1) a Gentile, AND……AND…..(2) a tax collector. That is pretty strong! Clearly, Jesus is serious about people obeying His Church.

    Now Argo, if there are 7 different and independent ‘churches’ as you would have us believe……which of the 7 are we being commanded by Jesus to obey? Would it be the 6 heretical or the Catholic Church?
    Sin is defined as interference with the Will of God.

    Would you have us believe that Jesus would give us a command to obey His Church….leave it to us to guess which one….thereby setting us up to sin?!

    Now the word, “ludicrous” resounds in my head.

    Now Argo, if we have been commanded by Jesus to OBEY His Church….which of the 40,000+ PROTESTant ecclesial communities (plus the Catholic Church)…and let’s not forget the self-anointed “popes” with their KJV books and their respective “churches” of one….are we supposed to obey?

    Argo…..Show me where in the Holy Bible (you can use your KJV book, if you choose), man is given the authority to start a “church” in opposition to the one that Jesus started? Surely, it is in there…you are a proponent of “Scripture Alone”. Something so important as man’s authority to start “churches” would be included therein. And Surely, PROTESTants would not do anything that is not contained in the Holy Bible (or even the KJV book). And surely, PROTESTants would obey everything in the Holy Bible (or even the KJV book).

    Where’s it at? It’s got to be in there somewhere.
    You can’t find it Argo….because it is a myth created by the Apostate Luther, as he lacked any teaching authority.

    Explain to me how there are 40,000+ PROTESTant ecclesial communities (they are not “churches”, as there is only one Church), running around all claiming to be led by the same Holy Spirit, and no two them can agree? And that does not include the self-anointed “popes” and their respective “churches” of one who run around with their KJV book claiming to “be saved”. (“I’m saved, are you saved? Hey, Fred is not saved.”)

    You have a free will, Argo. Believe a lie, if you choose.


    Eisegesis is not funny…..It is sad.


    .
    "At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time." (Dn 12:1)

    www.call2holiness.org/iniquity.htm

  6. #6
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    OOO! Isn't he just special... Time for some ego stroking... "My church is right, yours is not!!!" Where's the unity in that?

    Didn't Jesus pray that we all come together in unity as one in Him, as He is one with the Father???

    Looks to me somebody was trying to pick a fight... All I can tell you is...
    "STOP THAT!!!
    Pride Always Has A Better Idea.

    And it's not your job to mold me to your likeness!
    _______________________________________________

    Mat 22:37-40 (msg) Jesus said, "'Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.'

    This is the most important, the first on any list.

    But there is a second to set alongside it: 'Love others as well as you love yourself.'

    These two commands are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from them."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    .Had you made an attempt at learning the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4), you would have learned that in Catholicism individual consecrated places of worship are referred to as ‘churches’. I am a member of St. Theresa’s Catholic Church in a particular city in USA. These individual churches collectively comprise the Catholic Church. Each of them answer to the Magisterium of the Church united with the Holy Father in the Vatican, and have a common Faith (Tradition, Holy Scripture & and the Teachings of the Church)
    Act 17:24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    Since you ignored scripture and only took out of context what you wanted for your paradigm of belief, I also ignored the rest of your response.

    There are no 'holy places' or 'holy church buildings'. Jesus said BELIEVERS are the temple, and the spirit God dwells in them.

    But, since you also didnt even bother to go research the origination of the word 'church', which comes from the latter Greek word, Kurioton, it is understandable that you believe building carry some obscure 'holiness' because the definition of Kurioton is:

    The Secular Lord's House. The church, and church buildings are constructs of the secular lords. This is why the Vatican is a government, the Church of England is run at its head by the King, etc... etc...

    You keep your relgion and your secular lords house... I will serve Yeshua, for I am the temple, and the spirit of God dwells within me.

    Not in a conclave of corrupt men who VOTE in a Pope as their leader.
    Why is owning pets better than owning kids? Because if they get pregnant, you can sell their children.

    The Daily Economist
    http://www.thedailyeconomist.com

  8. #8
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    .

    You provided another typical Protestant non-response. Your attempted diversionary tactic is as transparent as your opening eisegesis.

    If your belief system had any legs, you would be able to provide a point-by-point exegetical response as I have done. I await such a meaningful response to my post #5 from you. With such a response I will read your diversionary tactic contained in post #7, and respond accordingly.



    “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” (Cf. 1Co 10:16-17)



    “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live fo ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them,"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."(Cf. Joh 6:51-5



    .
    "At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time." (Dn 12:1)

    www.call2holiness.org/iniquity.htm

  9. #9
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    To the OP's question about who is really behind the writing of the Bible.

    It's sort of like - Will the real architect and creator of the universe please stand up?

    When you have one God saying that He loves us and that He has provided a framework for living a good life in relationship with Him, and here are some commandments and rules to live by, you have someone IN AUTHORITY who provides order and structure, and would like clear and open communication, just like any loving parent.

    Then on the other hand you have another so-called god, who says he is the architect of the universe, that he is just as great as God, has a reputation of lying, says he'll use chaos to bring order, endorses each to do as they wish, killing of unborn and general rebellion, and utilizes much secrecy.

    Which one sounds as though they are large and in charge of the big picture? Which one sounds like the rebellious little brat? Why would the scorned little brat use both systems. He wouldn't (or have the ability), just as the Bible indicates.

  10. #10
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    you can claim to know, but the rules of religion require faith. If you have evidence, you don't need faith, so it can't exist. "feeling" can be described as "knowing", but that's not what it is. Using the incorrect word doesn't make it true.

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