Do You Believe in Scripture And in Scripture Alone?

[BB]

I can't be bothered to wade into that mess up there made by BB. Are you just making jokes? I like jokes, I've a big sense of humor, but I'm hoping your just pulling Cub's short hairs with some of that stuff, you've said stuff in there that even secular, agnostic historians will tell you you're just 100% wrong, but that's all.

Actually I thought the points that were made were simplistic and silly and I responded in kind although my comments were meant to have merit. Maybe you could point out where I'm a 100% wrong so we can talk about it. Cub's post was simply an attack on Protestants plain and simple.

The rest of that stuff you said is so reductive, child like in logic, and otherwise wrong without regard to whatever Verse you seem to think applies to whatever, I will just leave it lay right there, no insult otherwise intended.

Yes, a few of my responses were simplistic because of the simplistic attack. But again if you can point out where I was wrong, please do so. Simply saying I was wrong without saying why is pretty easy to do. Requires little effort and sounds good. I'll stand by my remarks.


Thanks Rustic Rose for your post. That's a confirmation.

[jazzy]

15. Show me please, where in the Gospels the Blessed Mother of God states “All the world, except for Protestants, shall call me blessed.”. You can’t. (Luk 1:48 )

dear cub, show me where in the Gospels or anywhere in scripture, we are instructed to bow down to her, pray to her, make statues of her, devote our hearts and lives to her and seek her out for help in getting to heaven. its not there. it was created by the church, totally made up for its own purpose. all the title, all the appellations and reasons to honor and pray to her are made up by man. so your point is invalid.

you seem to want us to believe that following the man made traditions created by the church that have added despite teachings in scripture is far more correct for christians than following the plain, simple words of Christ and teachings of the apostles. i can no longer do that, it is spiritually dishonest to me.

when the established church starts deviating from scripture and making things up, it proves it is no longer worthy of being trusted, and yes, it is then better to follow scripture alone as ones guide in how to think, act and worship the living God.

you seem to want us to accept that no matter how many times thru the centuries the church has done wrong, or done evil, or had evil minded leaders that persecuted, killed, and manipulated the people for its own gain, that it is STILL the one and only pure vessel of Christ. we are just supposed to forget about all that unpleasantness and let others think for us and tell us what God wants instead of going to God ourselves to find out.

im sorry, but i cannot find in the teachings of Christ evidence that Christ supports this premise.

the church may think it is the Only church, it might believe it is, but its actions prove different. actions speak louder than words.

luther was not a pure vessel by any means, but he was protesting the excesses and corruptions of the church that had built up over the centuries. it was overdue. the church, had it policed itself, kicked out the corrupt and returned to the actual teachings of the Lord, could have avoided the split.

so when a difference arises between a churchs actions and the words of Christ, ill take the words of Christ in scripture. i will continue to compare the teachings of Christ to the teachings of any organization that claims to be a christian church and represent him and avoid any and all who 'change' things.

scripture alone is good enough. its not 'worshipping' a book, its going to the source for Gods truth.

BB, i thought your responses were very good. well thought out and solid.

[Hermantribe]

Quote: "luther was not a pure vessel by any means, but he was protesting the excesses and corruptions of the church that had built up over the centuries. it was overdue. the church, had it policed itself, kicked out the corrupt and returned to the actual teachings of the Lord, could have avoided the split."

So Luther was either deceived or Jesus lied when He said nothing would prevail against His church. Luther was disappointed (rightly so) in the actions of MEN and thought Jesus needed help apparently.

[jazzy]

so who says maybe God didnt send luther?

when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, he didnt lie.

the church certainly and undeniably was in a period of corruption and needed correction. i remember reading of some priests who were seeking reform within but they were stonewalled. luther and others came up and held a mirror up to the church. they did not start out as wanting a new and different church, they were catholics who saw the corruption and demanded change and cleansing.

it was long overdue.

maybe it wasnt luther who was disappointed with the actions of men in the church, but God. when God people were off the mark, He sent messengers and prophets to correct them. im NOT saying luther was a prophet, im saying iti s not inconceivable God sent luther and others to shake the church from its wrong path. come on, ya gotta admit the selling of indulgences was a totally corrupt practice. selling letters to sinners to get them out of hell, no true inner repentance needed.....how many souls were lost by the church telling people, pay for this letter and thats all you need to get out of hell. it wasnt luthger who thought Jesus needed help, it was Jesus who thought the church that was supposed ot represent HIM on earth needed help.

there is no way you can tell me the church at that time was holy and pure and walked with Christ with clean hands..........and luther came along and caused trouble?

have you read luthers 95 theses?
http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

they are certainly interesting for discussion another time.

bless you hermantribe, i believe you are a dear soul, but i disagree with you.

["Capt. Midnight"]

Martin Luther was a good man, but at some point, perhaps from illness, I'm not sure, he became rather, shall we say. sketchy? I respect his work, and I mean that.

For the record, for any or all who don't know, I'm NOT a RC Christian. I'm an Anglican Catholic. I don't hold any special place in my heart for Rome or the Pope, I do respect the office, and again, for the record, I've got a few questions based on this current Pope's policies, but knowing that.

I will GLADLY grant you, that the Sacred Scripture, is the inspired work of God, written and COMPILED, by Godly People. I will say that, for the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, BOTH, are the works of Divine Inspiration.

I'm NOT asking, or intending, to convert ANYONE, to Catholicism, or my Anglican Catholic form of Faith. Not what I'm on about. For the record.

Quickly, for anyone who may not know, I've been on the rolls of Free Will Baptist Churches, Church of Christ in Christian union, as well, as the Church of England in my early times. I respect both sides of the isles.

I'm NOT telling anyone that the Bible is less than what it is.

I AM saying that the conversion of Souls is NOT done via a book, albeit a holy one. I will proclaim to the highest, that the Bible, KJ, whichever, is the Inspired works of God.

I spent MORE time, in my youth, in Protestant hands, than Apostolic, and while I STILL love My Protestant Friends, all I'm saying is, there is a BIG difference, between proclaiming that the Holy Bible, is Inerrant, Vs. saying that it is a complete total guide toward Salvation. "YES," If I were alone on an Island, with just the KJ, or ANY Bible, and I were to be open to it's teachings, YES, I could secure my Salvation.

God sent his ONLY Son, as a baby, in the flesh of man, to suffer, and die, to feel all that we do, hunger, tired, temptation, all of it, everything, to prove to us, him, and to satan, that it COULD be done. When he asked us, to break the bread, and to drink the wine, he gave his Beloved Apostles HIS bread and wine for that day, he at that point was Beatified, and they were weak, but he gave them, like he did for us, ALL HE HAD, ALL.

People didn't gather round to read a book, Jesus, as a flesh and blood creature, was able to show the love inside, to break through to the inner Soul of those listening, and SHOW them his Truth. To speak to their hearts, to show them the way. Just handing them a Bible does NOT do the same, ever.

We could throw Bible Verses around at each other ALL day, but Christ, as well as ANY devoted Apostle, then, or today, could convict the Heart and Soul of those they Witnessed to.

I could, and I do, have my Beloved Grandmothers apple pie recipe, all of the ingredients are there, well written, but the way, THE truth of the cognitive skills to make it proper, are NOT there. My pie is NOT even close to hers.

Souls are won, and lives changed, on a one to one basis, people are drawn to that positive inner light, that good vibration that we can't keep from radiating out of our being, and they ask us why, why we are SO happy, in a time of great trouble. As much as ANYONE may regard the Scriptures, they WILL NOT get that love and conviction from them, like they would being impressed upon by your inner light shining forth against the darkness of this world. The Church, ergo, the PEOPLE of Christ, were to St. Paul, the unshakable foundation of this Church, NOT the book, as Sacred as it may be. Christ DEMANDS that we seek, contact, and LOVE the least amongst us, he came unto this world as a swaddled baby, vulnerable, to see what we'd do with him.

If you want to debate Mary, PLEASE open another thread. If you can't see the sacrifice Mary gave, the Blessedness of her conviction, as well as how her example should be looked upon by parents in difficult situations today, KNOWING how much Christ, and his Father LOVE children? then YOU need to re-think the roots of this Religion, because YOU missed something REALLY big.

You go to Bible study, you and your kids, go to Sunday school, and you have a Pastor, Deacon, Rabbi, or Priest, who Sermons to you, so to say with JUST that in mind, that Sola Scriptura is valid is just wrong, and dangerous.

[BB]

CM, this is a great post and I agree with a lot of what you say. God certainly does reach sinners apart from The Book. The apostles went out preaching without a Bible in hand, with only "the testimony of Jesus Christ" empowered by the Holy Spirit in them. BUT after the apostles died wolves came in as the Apostle Paul foretold, who would sneak into the flock to deceive them. Jesus Himself warned three separate times in His discourse on end times to beware false prophets and false teachers.

Matthew 24:

4- And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

11- Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.


Here is what Paul said:

Acts 20:25ff “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

What is "the word of His grace"? It was faithfully written down to help identify the false teachers and false prophets....the "savage wolves".

Jude 1 "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed... 17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jude warns of the same thing...false teachers coming in 'unnoticed'. The only way to identify the true from the false was to "remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ." And how could they do that in the generations to follow unless the Spirit faithfully had these words of the apostles written down.

I agree with you that God can save and reach a sinner apart from the Bible BUT He has preserved the gospel and the truth in the Bible. Anyone teaching not in accordance with the words of the Apostles concerning the gospel need to be identified as false teachers.

And here is what the Apostle Peter teaches:

2Peter 1:13ff "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Here Peter tells believers that they do well to pay attention to the more sure word of prophecy found in the sacred writings as to a light in the darkness! That's what I'm doing. The Word of God is like a light to me. It keeps me from error and false doctrines.

2Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.... 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles."

The Apostle Peter, (the first Pope for some), tells us clearly that we need to remember "THE WORDS" of the prophets and apostles and Commandments of our Lord and Savior. These are only found in the Bible. That is what is meant by sola scriptura. It means that the words in the Bible are of the highest authority and anything taught in opposition or differently than what has been preserved is to be rejected.

What is dangerous to me my friend is being open to accepting doctrines and teachings not supported by the Word of God. These false teachings are found in Catholicism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. For wolves have entered the flock in every church and every fold. I recognize no authority for doctrine other than the Bible, thus sola scriptura.

2Tim. 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

1Tim. 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons."

Martin Luther was a good man, but at some point, perhaps from illness, I'm not sure, he became rather, shall we say. sketchy? I respect his work, and I mean that.

For the record, for any or all who don't know, I'm NOT a RC Christian. I'm an Anglican Catholic. I don't hold any special place in my heart for Rome or the Pope, I do respect the office, and again, for the record, I've got a few questions based on this current Pope's policies, but knowing that.

I will GLADLY grant you, that the Sacred Scripture, is the inspired work of God, written and COMPILED, by Godly People. I will say that, for the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, BOTH, are the works of Divine Inspiration.

I'm NOT asking, or intending, to convert ANYONE, to Catholicism, or my Anglican Catholic form of Faith. Not what I'm on about. For the record.

Quickly, for anyone who may not know, I've been on the rolls of Free Will Baptist Churches, Church of Christ in Christian union, as well, as the Church of England in my early times. I respect both sides of the isles.

I'm NOT telling anyone that the Bible is less than what it is.

I AM saying that the conversion of Souls is NOT done via a book, albeit a holy one. I will proclaim to the highest, that the Bible, KJ, whichever, is the Inspired works of God.

I spent MORE time, in my youth, in Protestant hands, than Apostolic, and while I STILL love My Protestant Friends, all I'm saying is, there is a BIG difference, between proclaiming that the Holy Bible, is Inerrant, Vs. saying that it is a complete total guide toward Salvation. "YES," If I were alone on an Island, with just the KJ, or ANY Bible, and I were to be open to it's teachings, YES, I could secure my Salvation.

God sent his ONLY Son, as a baby, in the flesh of man, to suffer, and die, to feel all that we do, hunger, tired, temptation, all of it, everything, to prove to us, him, and to satan, that it COULD be done. When he asked us, to break the bread, and to drink the wine, he gave his Beloved Apostles HIS bread and wine for that day, he at that point was Beatified, and they were weak, but he gave them, like he did for us, ALL HE HAD, ALL.

People didn't gather round to read a book, Jesus, as a flesh and blood creature, was able to show the love inside, to break through to the inner Soul of those listening, and SHOW them his Truth. To speak to their hearts, to show them the way. Just handing them a Bible does NOT do the same, ever.

We could throw Bible Verses around at each other ALL day, but Christ, as well as ANY devoted Apostle, then, or today, could convict the Heart and Soul of those they Witnessed to.

I could, and I do, have my Beloved Grandmothers apple pie recipe, all of the ingredients are there, well written, but the way, THE truth of the cognitive skills to make it proper, are NOT there. My pie is NOT even close to hers.

Souls are won, and lives changed, on a one to one basis, people are drawn to that positive inner light, that good vibration that we can't keep from radiating out of our being, and they ask us why, why we are SO happy, in a time of great trouble. As much as ANYONE may regard the Scriptures, they WILL NOT get that love and conviction from them, like they would being impressed upon by your inner light shining forth against the darkness of this world. The Church, ergo, the PEOPLE of Christ, were to St. Paul, the unshakable foundation of this Church, NOT the book, as Sacred as it may be. Christ DEMANDS that we seek, contact, and LOVE the least amongst us, he came unto this world as a swaddled baby, vulnerable, to see what we'd do with him.

If you want to debate Mary, PLEASE open another thread. If you can't see the sacrifice Mary gave, the Blessedness of her conviction, as well as how her example should be looked upon by parents in difficult situations today, KNOWING how much Christ, and his Father LOVE children? then YOU need to re-think the roots of this Religion, because YOU missed something REALLY big.

You go to Bible study, you and your kids, go to Sunday school, and you have a Pastor, Deacon, Rabbi, or Priest, who Sermons to you, so to say with JUST that in mind, that Sola Scriptura is valid is just wrong, and dangerous.

[Red Baron]

Show me in the Bible where it says the pope is infallible? You can't. Show me in the Bible where the office of the pope was ever started. You can't.