Do You Believe in Scripture And in Scripture Alone?

[Christian]

Mary without question is the most honored woman in heaven as the mother of the Lamb. However, some of the teachings in the Roman denomination are not supported by scripture. For instance, in Luke's gospel chapter 1 verse 47 Mary says "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior". Note her choice of the word "Savior". What kind of person needs a Savior? One who needs to be saved from the penalty of their SINS. Mary was a sinning mortal who needed God's forgiveness just like the rest of us. And in Mark's gospel Mary's other children are named (James, Joses, Juda, Simon, and Salome). So much for the Roman denomination's concept of "perpetual virgin". When John in Revelation 19 began to worship the angel in his presence, he was reprimanded by being told to only worship God and no other. If a holy sinless angel was unworthy of worship, then with her past forgiven sins certainly Mary doesn't qualify.

As far as the reputation of the Roman denomination, history is NOT on their side. The Spanish inquisition, the extensive medieval tortures documented in the Martyr's Mirror (I have a copy - it is a thick book- it specifies the dates and the names of the families tortured to death back then as well as the names of the priests and bishops doing the deeds), Galileo - who lived under lifelong house arrest for daring to suggest that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and nowadays with their priests' criminal acts of homosexual pedophilia being exposed. I would suggest that rather than dissing other true churches as false assemblies, they should be ever so grateful that the real Christian Churches don't all collectively shun them for being the apostates that they are.

[jazzy]

"The ONLY reason 98% of you bought into the Sola deal, is because someone TAUGHT that to you, and you swallowed it in, as well as."

not true. i was catholic, for a long time. i once believed we needed the church to guide us and i trusted it for my salvation. it was when i started reading and studying scripture with a concordance, praying for God to help me understand that i started seeing some things that puzzled me. i started seeing a real difference between what scripture taught and what the RCC taught. it was a problem to me. that led me to looking into history to see what was going on with the RCC. i wanted to get a full picture.

i saw there exists a difference between what Christ and the apostles taught and what the RCC developed into. it took me years to accept there WAS a difference, because i didnt want to.

then i started searching out all the letters and documents the early church had, and saw what they believed and taught and discussed, i wanted to go to the beginning, it was then i really started to see better and get a fuller picture.

i encourage everyone to go look up the early churchs writings and how the church developed. we all need to know this stuff. we need to know our history.

oh, i have never, ever seen or heard any protestant have disdain for mary or consider her a whore. she is considered a holy woman. where the heck do you get that she is called a whore? sheeesh.

i have, however, seen many, many people crawl on their knees, decorate statures with robes, crowns, flowers, light candles to, pray repeatedly to, beg and weep over statues, make sacrifices to an image of a woman they assume (because the church encourages them to) will help them, save them, bless them, heal them, help them get to heaven, believing that this woman has power and authority to do anything.

and it simply is not true. its made up.

thru history, the church has elevated dear mary to this position by declaring her born without sin, never dying but being assumed into heaven, a perpetual virgin, titling her mother of God, Queen of Heaven, etc, etc. if you go back and study the history of the church you can plainly see who brought this up and why, who in the church disagreed with this and why, the politics and the arguments. it is fascinating, really. but a tradition of men nonetheless that created dangerous implications.

protestants just believe this over emphasis and devotion is misguided and spiritually dangerous as Christ Jesus is The Only Way and The Only Truth----His words.

when an organization thru history has repeatedly violated its mandate and continually poses as The Voice of Christ, does not repeant or clean house i think it loses not only its authority but relevancy. its no different than a jimmy swaggart. the RCC is no different, it too has its jimmy swaggarts, just hides them better.

yes, the body of Christ is sadly divided. not all churchs claiming to be christian are actually christian. it is the spirit of religion that divides us, it is people following a leader, a prophet, a prophecy teacher, or a long held tradition as opposed to following the simple words of Christ that we are divided. it is sin and pride and arrogance that divides us.

and the RCC is divided into factions also, it is not all one homogenous happy family either. i did a search once (in a post on a forum defending the RCC by the way) and found there are dozens and dozens of different 'types' of catholics and catholic understandings.

Sola Scriptura has alot of history behind why it has become so important. it wasnt just one day made up because someone was in a snit, it was in response to long term abuses and corruption of leaders of the church.

it is important because the church historically has done some very wrong things, diverged from the Truth of scripture and flat out made some things up. they is why some people feel they cannot trust the church anymore, so they turn to scripture.

Sola Scriptura guides us back to God truth and Gods teachings if we humble ourselves.

if you find spiritual nourishment and a closer walk with Christ Jesus within that church, good for you and God bless you.

but for some of us, we could not, so we seek our closer walk with Christ in scripture trying to be faithful and obedient to Him as opposed to an organization.

i dont seek to batter you or anyone with scripture, or belittle you or change you. i just want people to THINK and EXAMINE as opposed to just follow when a claim is made the RCC is the one true church.

they have proved to me to have lost the right to that title long time ago, no matter what they claim today.

so Sola Scriptura---"the doctrine that the Bible is the only infallible and inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness" has become my guide to follow Christ. it is the only thing i feel i can trust.

[BB]

jazzy, thank you for a most excellent and holy post.

[jazzy]

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God. Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the Reformers and is a formal principle of Protestantism today.


By contrast, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Churches teach that the Scriptures are not the only infallible source of Christian doctrine. For them Scripture is but one of three equal authorities; the other two being Sacred Tradition and the episcopacy. These churches also believe that the Church has authority to establish or restrict interpretation of Scriptures because, in part, it implicitly selected which books were to be in the biblical canon through its traditions, whereas Protestants believe the Church passively recognized and received the books that were already widely considered canonical.


Sola scriptura is one of the five solas, considered by some Protestant groups to be the theological pillars of the Reformation.[2] The key implication of the principle is that interpretations and applications of the Scriptures do not have the same authority as the Scriptures themselves; hence, the ecclesiastical authority is viewed as subject to correction by the Scriptures, even by an individual member of the Church.


Luther said, "a simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it". The intention of the Reformation was to correct the perceived errors of the Catholic Church by appeal to the uniqueness of the Bible's authority and to reject what Catholics considered to be Apostolic Tradition as a source of original authority alongside the Bible, wherever Tradition did not have biblical support or where it supposedly contradicted Scripture.


Sola scriptura, however, does not ignore Christian history and tradition when seeking to understand the Bible. Rather, it sees the Bible as the only final authority in matters of faith and practice. As Martin Luther said, "The true rule is this: God's Word shall establish articles of faith, and no one else, not even an angel can do so."[3]
The term heretical is commonly used by Protestants who denounce teachings and institutions that they accordingly view as deviating from Scripture.




According to sola scriptura, the Church does not speak infallibly in its traditions, but only in Scripture. As John Wesley stated in the 18th century, "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church."[28] For this reason, sola scriptura is called the formal cause or principle of the Reformation.

Protestants argue that the Scriptures are guaranteed to remain true to their divine source; and, thus, only insofar as the Church retains scriptural faith is it assured of God's favor. Following such an argument, if the Church were to fall away from faith through Scripture (a possibility which Roman Catholics deny but Protestants affirm), its authority would be negated. Therefore, the early Protestants argued for the elimination of traditions and doctrines they believed were based on distortions of Scripture, or were contrary to the Bible, but which the Roman Catholic Church considered scripturally-based aspects of the Christian faith, such as transubstantiation (John 6:51), the doctrine of purgatory (1 Cor 3:15), the veneration of images or icons (Numbers 21:8), and especially the doctrine that the Pope in Rome is the head of the Church on earth (Papal supremacy) (John 21:17).


-----just some excerpts from wikipedia, there is alot more info on WHY sola scripture was considered so very important.

fascinating stuff that gets you thinking. sola scriptura was not meant as a weapon against the RCC or to harm it, it was meant as a tool of reform that the church badly needed. the church responded violently seeing it as an attack on its authority and power, it denied it needed any reform and demanded obedience. hence the great split or schism.

i believe if the church had humbled itself, examined itself and cleaned house, no split would have happened. in my view the church brought it on itself.

not unlike a person claiming to be a christian who is confronted by other christians for their unchristian behavior. the person can examine themselves and repent of their errors or can get mad and say go to hell to the confronters. the RCC said in effect go to hell to those challenging it.

as i said, it is fascinating and would in a way be humorous or silly if not for all the people excommunicated, imprisoned, tortured or burned for daring to question the church.

very sad, very, very sad time.

["Capt. Midnight"]

I will gladly accept your observations as to how some people get swept up in the Adoration of Mary. I will never tell anyone that Mary is a key to their Salvation. Do however indulge me, I'm also certain that in this world, many times, women and parents, who struggle in poverty, working so hard. Could look to Mary as an example of how a good child can be raised in a world filled with misery and sin. I will also agree with you, that it is rather a bit too much with the weeping statues, all of that.

I will also say, in the vein of going to far, that one of the FIRST slams out of the average Protestant's mouth going after Catholics is right at Mary. While I see no need to Worship Mary, I see the pattern going the other way.

In my ONE, and ONLY criticism of the Sola concept, AGAIN, I don't dispute with anyone, the Bibles Sacred status, it's inerrant status, or it's being the inspired works of God, through men.

My only contention with the concept, is that it diminishes the personal, human contact of love and witness by loving, Holy Spirit filled people. I Worship Christ, his teachings, and his example. I don't Worship this, or any book. Christ didn't write anything, he TAUGHT, he touched, he lived, and he gave everything. When he offered the bread, it was HIS portion for the day. To walk with Christ is to strive to do the same.

Try as one might, the same impression is really hard to effect from a book, even to a receptive reader, compared to that of loving human interaction. Why is that so hard to agree with?

Otherwise, I couldn't care less if anyone were to be led to convert Rome. It is telling that anywhere you go, and discuss this, it can't be done without the Sola crowd throwing turnips on the Catholics. I won't otherwise claim to say that in many peoples minds, Sola IS an assault on Catholicism. It does seem to be on the front line of those explaining the concept, as well as any argument over it. I have no intention to argue over it, the Spirit isn't in it for me. Again, I'm pleading for the Soul reaching out to another, in torment, alone, sick and in prison, I'm sure you've read that. A dusty Bible in that cell might be a comfort, but nothing like someone to talk to.

I also wish all of those evil crimes by those claiming to do so in Christs name never would've happened. The history of mankind is filled with the fruits of original sin. We as such love the darkness, without his Grace, we continue to walk towards it. All due to our sinful nature. While all of these crimes you say are historical fact, these were EVERY bit as well, the sins and crimes of MEN, not the Church Christ began.

You also forgot to give mention to the countless Saints who died willingly espousing the same values. Someone working with a bias only filters out or in what the bias is working for, so, even with Bible studies, it is good and proper to seek fellow Christians for sharing and comparing our perceptions of the Holy Writ, I'm sure you'd allow for that? even the occasional Sunday School?

Point me then, in the direction of the Congregation that isn't filled with sinners, that too, is where I'd like to go.

The gate has always been narrow, and the Bible can inspire, but to SEE, to WITNESS someone living a life going against the tides, shedding off temporal comforts, wealth, things of the earth, filled with the Love and Grace of the Holy Spirit, that is the Christ like example I'd like to follow. Show me where there's more people living the great Commission, because I for one can't get close enough, often enough, to the Holy Spirit.

I'm certain some can be swayed by reading a book, but to see and touch and be around that is where most will be drawn to. God must know the same, he became as Flesh, and did it for us, gave us a living example of what he wishes for us. He didn't just send the manual. He already tried that.

Perhaps what we're witnessing, are countless mini reformations? did you ever think of that? when someone feels that first presence of the Holy Spirit come down, when they REALLY know, REALLY FEEL Christ come into their heart, and that all powerful love inside of them, they want to keep that, to grow closer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It may just be that they get a taste of some of the Churches, and they don't know HOW to say whats missing, but they know that the Spirit that filled them isn't in there, and they keep looking for it. Perhaps all too many Christians might not be able to throw Scriptures around as poison darts, to tear down, to destroy, but satan does, and thats ALL he does.

Sometimes it's better to love, than to be right. Even if Rome sucks, I still say, your hanging WAY too much on that one peg.

[jazzy]

Sometimes it's better to love, than to be right.---

God bless you Capt, you have a sweet soul. we may disagree here and there on some things, but you are always good to talk with.

[grampster]

One of the most committed Christians I know, a man who walks with Jesus each day, who not only speaks his faith, but lives it and shares it with everyone at all times, who lost a son to brain cancer and then has spent the last 20 years raising money for St. Jude Hospital without a penny being spent to fund the raising of the money, who reminds people continuously that Jesus is the Truth, the Light and the Way, who is the closest to be in the presence of a living breathing saint, one of my oldest friends, is a Roman Catholic.

Praise Jesus.

If Jesus didn't want men sharing the gospel by word and deed, why did he appoint Apostles? Why are we given the Holy Spirit? I, too, believe all of the truth that is necessary is in Holy Scripture, which is God breathed and men were inspired to write it down and translate it in the way it needs to be so that every person can find the Truth there. Those are the Words that are used by men to share the Light, the Truth and the Way. It us usually a person who leads someone to Scripture. Jesus Christ is presented and worshiped in the Roman Church. As Jesus Himself said to his Apostles who were grumbling about others spreading the Gospel, that if they weren't against us they are for us. The Roman Catholic Church is spreading and has spread the Gospel. It is full of sinners just like every Protestant Church.

Churchgoing people should be reminded that Christ pointed out that His Church is like the body; many, many parts make up the body, each doing it's own thing which makes the body work as one critter with Christ as it's head. With the body perhaps cancer could be described as Satan, getting into the body and trying to destroy it, cause it to eat itself up, to break it down so that it no longer works together but it divides like a plague and kills it. Churches that preach and teach Christ crucified, died, resurrected and went home to heaven are all part of that body that is His church; having varied purposes and jobs but all working for each other to make it whole.

For me, I have too many things in my life that shame me and nearly bring me down because I fail and fail and fail and Jesus lifts me up and up and up and up. I ain't got any time to rag on denominations. I know the truth and that's good enough.

["Capt. Midnight"]

Your story is an Inspiration. ANYONE, can be a Saint. Some, known as lessor, being Family, or regional in focus, often the story goes out, and there you go. Anyone who accepts the challenges God puts them to, and does so well, is a Saint to someone, somewhere, somehow.

If it weren't for my Saintly Grandmother, I can promise you, based on where I was raised, I'd either be dead, or in prison.

A Bible, complete, and inerrant, and it is just that, left alone on a shelf, or in a dusty drawer, holds no real power.