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Thread: Do You Believe in Scripture And in Scripture Alone?

  1. #11
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    The Bible, is Infallible, men, however, can and do, have very fallible interpretations of the Bible.
    "You Can't MAKE this stuff up."


    They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.
    Ezekiel 7:19




  2. #12
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    This is just for you Cub.

    [quote=The Cub;1568241].

    Do You Believe in Scripture And in Scripture Alone?


    All Protestants claim to believe in Holy Scripture. Additionally, Protestants claim that the notion of Scripture alone not only exists, but is sound doctrine. If these claims are true, then surely the following Protestant beliefs would be readily available within Holy Scripture. Accordingly, I ask you the following questions:


    1. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture one can find the phrase “Scripture Alone”. You can’t as it is a Protestant fabrication originating with the apostate, Martin Luther.

    There is a failure to understand the meaning of the term "Scripture Alone". This phrase is meant everytime our Lord said, "Thus saith the Lord." When the devil tempted Christ, Jesus only used Scripture to defeat him.

    Jesus said that man must not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Notice Jesus said, THE MOUTH OF GOD....not the mouth of men.

    The meaning is that ALL doctrine is to be derived by Scripture and not by tradition or churches or men. "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness."

    2. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture one can find the phrase ‘Faith Alone’. You can’t as it is another Protestant fabrication originating with Martin Luther, when he added the word ‘alone’ to Rom 3:28, and bragged about doing so.

    Again you miss the point. It is not the literal phrase that is important as is the meaning of the phrase. Any reading of Romans 3-5 will reveal that it was Abraham's faith that was counted as righteousness....thus it was his faith alone that led to the 'fruits' of good works. But in salvation, it is all of grace....alone. We trust that Jesus paid the debts of our sins on the cross. We trust that Jesus has given us His Spirit to give us power over indwelling sin. And We trust that Jesus will return to deliver us from this evil world of sin. Salvation is all by Jesus by His grace and therefore can only be received by faith.....alone.

    3. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture that the father of Protestantism (Martin Luther), and indeed contemporary Protestants, have the right to delete seven canonical books of the Bible. You can’t. (Deu 4:2; Prov 30:5-6; Gal. 1:8; Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22: 18-19)

    Please see biblewheel.com The research done proves conclusively that God intended only 66 books to be in the Bible. You do not find Jesus or any Apostle quoting from the apocaphra in the NT. You also have to ask why the Jews do not include the apocrapha in the Torah.

    4. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture, it states that except for Protestants, no one is to add to or subtract from God’s word. You can’t. (Deu 4:2; Prov 30:5-6; Gal. 1:8; Pet 3:15-16; Rev. 22: 18-19)

    No one is adding or subtracting. But the Catholics add. They add the apocaphra. They add tradition. They add ex cathedra. They add doctrines like the Immaculate Mary and infallibility of the Popes. Luther nailed 95 things the Catholics were 'adding' and 'subtracting'. Have you read them?


    5. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture Protestants were given the right to establish ‘churches’ in addition to, and opposition to, the true Church established by Jesus Christ. You can’t. (Mat 16:18; Mat 18:17))

    Whereever two or three are gathered in my Name, there I am. And where believers meet for worship of God there is the church. The Catholic church is not the true church. It actually is the false church described in Rev. 13:11 as the False Prophet and Rev. 17 as the harlot riding the beast.

    6. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture it states that the Bible is the ‘pillar and bulwark of truth’. You can’t. (1Ti 3:15)

    The scripture you quote reads: "the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." Now read Eph. 2:19ff "but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."

    Do you see that the true church must be built on the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles....meaning the Word of God. The Catholic church adds to that foundation....the teachings of men, tradition, Popes and Rome.

    7. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture Jesus established a book. You can’t. (Mat 16:18; Mat 18:17)

    Jesus is THE LIVING WORD OF GOD.


    8. Show me please, where in the Gospels, Jesus stated “Thou art Peter, the rock, and upon this rock I will write my Bible”. You can’t. (Mat 16:1

    This point is just being argumentative. Jesus said we must "live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." The Scriptures are inspired by God in order to help God's people root out heretics, liars and false teachers and identify false churches ...like Roman Catholicism.

    9. Show me please, where in the Gospels Jesus told His disciples to write anything down. You can’t. (Mat 10:1-15)

    And please tell me why you only refer to the gospels? Jesus spoke His last words in the book of Revelation. He clearly told John to write down all that he saw and heard.

    10. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture Jesus told His disciples to spread the Faith by publishing a book. You can’t.

    What a silly argument. God has decreed that the gospel of Christ shall go to all the world by the preaching of the gospel. How beautiful are the feet of those who PUBLISH glad tidings. Romans 10

    11. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture it states that the Bible comprises 100% of the Faith. You can’t. (Joh 20:30-31; Joh 21:25; Joh 16:12-15)

    Well the foundation of the church is built upon the prophets (OT) and the Apostles (NT). If you add to that foundation you add to God's Word. See the last chapter of the Bible. No one is to add to God's Word.

    12. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture, Jesus told His disciples “except for you Protestants, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. You can’t. (Joh 20:21-23; 2Co 5:18 )

    Jesus alone has authority to forgive sins. The sins in the Scriptures you are referring to has to do with church discipline. Read Hebrews. The whole book teaches that our High Priest is Jesus ALONE. He alone has the power to forgive sins. "If any one is willing to confess their sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins." 1John1:9

    13. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture, Jesus told His disciples “This is My Body; This is My Blood. Except for you Protestants, do this in remembrance of Me”. You can’t. (Luk 22:19-20 1Co 11:24-25)

    Jesus held up a piece of bread and said, "THIS IS MY BODY". Clearly Jesus wasn't referring to His physical body which was sitting in one piece. Clearly Jesus was simply saying that the broken bread represented His broken body.

    14, Show me please, where in the Gospels, Jesus stated “Truly, Truly except for you Protestants, unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life within you.”. You can’t. (Joh 6:47-58 )

    You clearly reveal a failure to properly interpret the Scripture. Sometimes Jesus used figurative language....like in John 6.

    15. Show me please, where in the Gospels the Blessed Mother of God states “All the world, except for Protestants, shall call me blessed.”. You can’t. (Luk 1:48 )

    We do call her blessed...but not Co-Redemptress.

    16. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture, it states that “Everything that Jesus did is contained in the Bible.”. You can’t. (Joh 21:25)

    The Scripture you quote is clear. Not everything Jesus did is in the Bible. What's your point?

    17. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture, it states "So faith comes from what is read, and what is read comes by the preaching of Christ. But I ask, have they not read? Indeed they have; for "The Bible has gone out to all the earth, and the Bible to the ends of the world." You can’t. (Rom 10:17-18 )

    Again, a silly argument. Faith by hearing "the Word of God"..not the teachings of men. The Bible is called the Word of God.

    18. Show me please, where in the Gospels Jesus told anyone not to keep the commandments, as all one has to do is state ‘I accept Jesus as my Lord and personal Savior’, and he is forever ‘saved’ and free to sin boldly. You can’t. (Mat 19:16-19)

    Romans 10:13 "For the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

    19. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture it states that, except for Protestants, good works are necessary. You can’t. (Mat 7:21, Jam 3:14-26, Phi 2:12-13, Rev 3:15-16, Joh 15:1-2, 1CO 3:9; 2Co 5:10; Mat 25:31-46; et al) (Refer to Note 1 below).

    Good works are necessary as they reveal a changed heart. But good works do not save us. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

    20. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture it states that the Jesus will leave the Church alone as orphans for about 1,500 years until the Protestants arise, delete seven books of the Bible, and proclaim ‘Scripture Alone’ and ‘Faith Alone’. You can’t. (Joh 14:18 )

    He didn't leave us alone. That's the whole point. He said He would send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the true Vicar of Christ on the earth. That the Pope calls himself the Vicar of Christ is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

    21. Show me please, where in Holy Scripture it states that the gates of Hell will prevail against the Church for about 1,500 years until the Protestants arise and delete seven books from the Bible, and proclaim ‘Scripture Alone’ and ‘Faith Alone’. You can’t. (Mat 16:18 )

    In Revelation 13 where we're told a false prophet would arise and make an image to the beast. When pagan imperial Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Bishop of Rome made an image to pagan Rome and established Papal Rome or what is better described as the Holy Roman Empire.

    “If you believe what you like in the Gospel and r4eject what you do not like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.” St. Augustine.

    The Gospel is found in 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

    "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."
    "Come, my people, enter your houses and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little while until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isa. 26:20
    "My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid." John 14:27 Beau Soir

  3. #13
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    Hey,

    I'm not getting in this debate, but did want to point out to Capt Midnight his statement:

    Christians Worshiped Christ for about 300 years before there even started to be a complied Bible,
    Is quite incorrect. The New Testament was known to those alive around 100 AD as the 22 plus 5 (those 27 books are the same ones we have today). And by 150 AD most larger cities who had communities of Christians had a copy of these 22 and 5.

    Iraneous of Lyon France, 150 circa, quoted quite frequently from these 22 and 5, which is evident in his writings and homilies. Many of those times were prolific writers, and are available today. Hippoletus (sp?) circa 175 AD in his "Essay on Anti-Christ" quotes/references from Revelation and Daniel.

    What ever any one may believe about the Bible is not what I'm disputing, but rather simply the timeline of the ....compilation. The evidence that I have presented is a part of historical fact, and is quite undisputed, however that does not mean you have to believe it.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  4. #14
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    Some writings were coming together about that time. Yes. Some will say 100, some will say about 150 years AD. The New Testament as we know it today was not, as we know it today. I am not disputing what you said, I probably was too simplistic, but were both beating the same nail.

    Even if we say, for fun, they had a complete, agreed upon NT at 100AD. They had to Worship something, and they did. Christ. Christ taught and gave instructions. So much so, that at different times, people thought it smart to write stuff down. As such, there was another push once it became real clear that the life expectancy of an Apostle wasn't very long, so they pushed them to write their Witness to what they saw that day, their New Testament, of Faith.

    So, STILL saying 100AD, much of the books you, and I, hold dear, were written by St.Paul, who scurried around the known World teaching, instructing, and correcting, he didn't just tell them to read the manual. He TAUGHT them.

    I don't Worship a Bible, I Worship Christ. We are not people of the book, muslims are.

    I can't be bothered to wade into that mess up there made by BB. Are you just making jokes? I like jokes, I've a big sense of humor, but I'm hoping your just pulling Cub's short hairs with some of that stuff, you've said stuff in there that even secular, agnostic historians will tell you you're just 100% wrong, but that's all.

    I'm also not prepared to question anyone's Salvation, and I pray everyday at 3pm for the same, for us all.

    There's a big difference, in proclaiming the Holy Bible, as Infallible, Inspired works of God, to the thought killing cliche' known as sola scriptura. I don't need to cite chapters an Verses, the fruits are on display for us all to see, and the destruction increases at a frightening pace, right before our eyes.

    The rest of that stuff you said is so reductive, child like in logic, and otherwise wrong without regard to whatever Verse you seem to think applies to whatever, I will just leave it lay right there, no insult otherwise intended.

    I believe otherwise we all Love God, and he Loves us.

    Amen!
    "You Can't MAKE this stuff up."


    They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.
    Ezekiel 7:19




  5. #15
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    Cub, you really do not know much about Protestants. My first reaction to what you wrote was, "WOW! what are you so angry about?"

    BB, thanks for your excellent response to Cub.
    "When Christ uttered the cry, 'It is finished,' he knew that the battle was won. As a moral conqueror, he planted his banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? Not a son nor a daughter of Adam but could now lay hold on the merits of the spotless son of God, and say: 'Christ has died for me. He is my saviour...'" - Ellen G. White.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by "Capt. Midnight" View Post
    I can't be bothered to wade into that mess up there made by BB. Are you just making jokes? I like jokes, I've a big sense of humor, but I'm hoping your just pulling Cub's short hairs with some of that stuff, you've said stuff in there that even secular, agnostic historians will tell you you're just 100% wrong, but that's all.
    Actually I thought the points that were made were simplistic and silly and I responded in kind although my comments were meant to have merit. Maybe you could point out where I'm a 100% wrong so we can talk about it. Cub's post was simply an attack on Protestants plain and simple.


    The rest of that stuff you said is so reductive, child like in logic, and otherwise wrong without regard to whatever Verse you seem to think applies to whatever, I will just leave it lay right there, no insult otherwise intended.
    Yes, a few of my responses were simplistic because of the simplistic attack. But again if you can point out where I was wrong, please do so. Simply saying I was wrong without saying why is pretty easy to do. Requires little effort and sounds good. I'll stand by my remarks.


    Thanks Rustic Rose for your post. That's a confirmation.
    "Come, my people, enter your houses and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little while until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isa. 26:20
    "My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid." John 14:27 Beau Soir

  7. #17
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    15. Show me please, where in the Gospels the Blessed Mother of God states “All the world, except for Protestants, shall call me blessed.”. You can’t. (Luk 1:48 )

    dear cub, show me where in the Gospels or anywhere in scripture, we are instructed to bow down to her, pray to her, make statues of her, devote our hearts and lives to her and seek her out for help in getting to heaven. its not there. it was created by the church, totally made up for its own purpose. all the title, all the appellations and reasons to honor and pray to her are made up by man. so your point is invalid.

    you seem to want us to believe that following the man made traditions created by the church that have added despite teachings in scripture is far more correct for christians than following the plain, simple words of Christ and teachings of the apostles. i can no longer do that, it is spiritually dishonest to me.

    when the established church starts deviating from scripture and making things up, it proves it is no longer worthy of being trusted, and yes, it is then better to follow scripture alone as ones guide in how to think, act and worship the living God.

    you seem to want us to accept that no matter how many times thru the centuries the church has done wrong, or done evil, or had evil minded leaders that persecuted, killed, and manipulated the people for its own gain, that it is STILL the one and only pure vessel of Christ. we are just supposed to forget about all that unpleasantness and let others think for us and tell us what God wants instead of going to God ourselves to find out.

    im sorry, but i cannot find in the teachings of Christ evidence that Christ supports this premise.

    the church may think it is the Only church, it might believe it is, but its actions prove different. actions speak louder than words.

    luther was not a pure vessel by any means, but he was protesting the excesses and corruptions of the church that had built up over the centuries. it was overdue. the church, had it policed itself, kicked out the corrupt and returned to the actual teachings of the Lord, could have avoided the split.

    so when a difference arises between a churchs actions and the words of Christ, ill take the words of Christ in scripture. i will continue to compare the teachings of Christ to the teachings of any organization that claims to be a christian church and represent him and avoid any and all who 'change' things.

    scripture alone is good enough. its not 'worshipping' a book, its going to the source for Gods truth.

    BB, i thought your responses were very good. well thought out and solid.




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  8. #18
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    Quote: "luther was not a pure vessel by any means, but he was protesting the excesses and corruptions of the church that had built up over the centuries. it was overdue. the church, had it policed itself, kicked out the corrupt and returned to the actual teachings of the Lord, could have avoided the split."

    So Luther was either deceived or Jesus lied when He said nothing would prevail against His church. Luther was disappointed (rightly so) in the actions of MEN and thought Jesus needed help apparently.
    ~Kate

    Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. —Martin Luther, Christmas Sermon, 1529.

  9. #19
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    so who says maybe God didnt send luther?

    when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church, he didnt lie.

    the church certainly and undeniably was in a period of corruption and needed correction. i remember reading of some priests who were seeking reform within but they were stonewalled. luther and others came up and held a mirror up to the church. they did not start out as wanting a new and different church, they were catholics who saw the corruption and demanded change and cleansing.

    it was long overdue.

    maybe it wasnt luther who was disappointed with the actions of men in the church, but God. when God people were off the mark, He sent messengers and prophets to correct them. im NOT saying luther was a prophet, im saying iti s not inconceivable God sent luther and others to shake the church from its wrong path. come on, ya gotta admit the selling of indulgences was a totally corrupt practice. selling letters to sinners to get them out of hell, no true inner repentance needed.....how many souls were lost by the church telling people, pay for this letter and thats all you need to get out of hell. it wasnt luthger who thought Jesus needed help, it was Jesus who thought the church that was supposed ot represent HIM on earth needed help.

    there is no way you can tell me the church at that time was holy and pure and walked with Christ with clean hands..........and luther came along and caused trouble?

    have you read luthers 95 theses?
    http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

    they are certainly interesting for discussion another time.

    bless you hermantribe, i believe you are a dear soul, but i disagree with you.
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  10. #20
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    Martin Luther was a good man, but at some point, perhaps from illness, I'm not sure, he became rather, shall we say. sketchy? I respect his work, and I mean that.

    For the record, for any or all who don't know, I'm NOT a RC Christian. I'm an Anglican Catholic. I don't hold any special place in my heart for Rome or the Pope, I do respect the office, and again, for the record, I've got a few questions based on this current Pope's policies, but knowing that.

    I will GLADLY grant you, that the Sacred Scripture, is the inspired work of God, written and COMPILED, by Godly People. I will say that, for the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, BOTH, are the works of Divine Inspiration.

    I'm NOT asking, or intending, to convert ANYONE, to Catholicism, or my Anglican Catholic form of Faith. Not what I'm on about. For the record.

    Quickly, for anyone who may not know, I've been on the rolls of Free Will Baptist Churches, Church of Christ in Christian union, as well, as the Church of England in my early times. I respect both sides of the isles.

    I'm NOT telling anyone that the Bible is less than what it is.

    I AM saying that the conversion of Souls is NOT done via a book, albeit a holy one. I will proclaim to the highest, that the Bible, KJ, whichever, is the Inspired works of God.

    I spent MORE time, in my youth, in Protestant hands, than Apostolic, and while I STILL love My Protestant Friends, all I'm saying is, there is a BIG difference, between proclaiming that the Holy Bible, is Inerrant, Vs. saying that it is a complete total guide toward Salvation. "YES," If I were alone on an Island, with just the KJ, or ANY Bible, and I were to be open to it's teachings, YES, I could secure my Salvation.

    God sent his ONLY Son, as a baby, in the flesh of man, to suffer, and die, to feel all that we do, hunger, tired, temptation, all of it, everything, to prove to us, him, and to satan, that it COULD be done. When he asked us, to break the bread, and to drink the wine, he gave his Beloved Apostles HIS bread and wine for that day, he at that point was Beatified, and they were weak, but he gave them, like he did for us, ALL HE HAD, ALL.

    People didn't gather round to read a book, Jesus, as a flesh and blood creature, was able to show the love inside, to break through to the inner Soul of those listening, and SHOW them his Truth. To speak to their hearts, to show them the way. Just handing them a Bible does NOT do the same, ever.

    We could throw Bible Verses around at each other ALL day, but Christ, as well as ANY devoted Apostle, then, or today, could convict the Heart and Soul of those they Witnessed to.

    I could, and I do, have my Beloved Grandmothers apple pie recipe, all of the ingredients are there, well written, but the way, THE truth of the cognitive skills to make it proper, are NOT there. My pie is NOT even close to hers.

    Souls are won, and lives changed, on a one to one basis, people are drawn to that positive inner light, that good vibration that we can't keep from radiating out of our being, and they ask us why, why we are SO happy, in a time of great trouble. As much as ANYONE may regard the Scriptures, they WILL NOT get that love and conviction from them, like they would being impressed upon by your inner light shining forth against the darkness of this world. The Church, ergo, the PEOPLE of Christ, were to St. Paul, the unshakable foundation of this Church, NOT the book, as Sacred as it may be. Christ DEMANDS that we seek, contact, and LOVE the least amongst us, he came unto this world as a swaddled baby, vulnerable, to see what we'd do with him.

    If you want to debate Mary, PLEASE open another thread. If you can't see the sacrifice Mary gave, the Blessedness of her conviction, as well as how her example should be looked upon by parents in difficult situations today, KNOWING how much Christ, and his Father LOVE children? then YOU need to re-think the roots of this Religion, because YOU missed something REALLY big.

    You go to Bible study, you and your kids, go to Sunday school, and you have a Pastor, Deacon, Rabbi, or Priest, who Sermons to you, so to say with JUST that in mind, that Sola Scriptura is valid is just wrong, and dangerous.
    "You Can't MAKE this stuff up."


    They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.
    Ezekiel 7:19




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