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Thread: Do You Believe in Scripture And in Scripture Alone?

  1. #21
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    CM, this is a great post and I agree with a lot of what you say. God certainly does reach sinners apart from The Book. The apostles went out preaching without a Bible in hand, with only "the testimony of Jesus Christ" empowered by the Holy Spirit in them. BUT after the apostles died wolves came in as the Apostle Paul foretold, who would sneak into the flock to deceive them. Jesus Himself warned three separate times in His discourse on end times to beware false prophets and false teachers.

    Matthew 24:

    4- And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

    11- Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

    24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.


    Here is what Paul said:

    Acts 20:25ff “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

    What is "the word of His grace"? It was faithfully written down to help identify the false teachers and false prophets....the "savage wolves".

    Jude 1 "Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed... 17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Jude warns of the same thing...false teachers coming in 'unnoticed'. The only way to identify the true from the false was to "remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ." And how could they do that in the generations to follow unless the Spirit faithfully had these words of the apostles written down.

    I agree with you that God can save and reach a sinner apart from the Bible BUT He has preserved the gospel and the truth in the Bible. Anyone teaching not in accordance with the words of the Apostles concerning the gospel need to be identified as false teachers.

    And here is what the Apostle Peter teaches:

    2Peter 1:13ff "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

    Here Peter tells believers that they do well to pay attention to the more sure word of prophecy found in the sacred writings as to a light in the darkness! That's what I'm doing. The Word of God is like a light to me. It keeps me from error and false doctrines.

    2Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.... 3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles."

    The Apostle Peter, (the first Pope for some), tells us clearly that we need to remember "THE WORDS" of the prophets and apostles and Commandments of our Lord and Savior. These are only found in the Bible. That is what is meant by sola scriptura. It means that the words in the Bible are of the highest authority and anything taught in opposition or differently than what has been preserved is to be rejected.

    What is dangerous to me my friend is being open to accepting doctrines and teachings not supported by the Word of God. These false teachings are found in Catholicism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism. For wolves have entered the flock in every church and every fold. I recognize no authority for doctrine other than the Bible, thus sola scriptura.

    2Tim. 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

    1Tim. 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons."




    Quote Originally Posted by "Capt. Midnight" View Post
    Martin Luther was a good man, but at some point, perhaps from illness, I'm not sure, he became rather, shall we say. sketchy? I respect his work, and I mean that.

    For the record, for any or all who don't know, I'm NOT a RC Christian. I'm an Anglican Catholic. I don't hold any special place in my heart for Rome or the Pope, I do respect the office, and again, for the record, I've got a few questions based on this current Pope's policies, but knowing that.

    I will GLADLY grant you, that the Sacred Scripture, is the inspired work of God, written and COMPILED, by Godly People. I will say that, for the Protestant Bible, or the Catholic Bible, BOTH, are the works of Divine Inspiration.

    I'm NOT asking, or intending, to convert ANYONE, to Catholicism, or my Anglican Catholic form of Faith. Not what I'm on about. For the record.

    Quickly, for anyone who may not know, I've been on the rolls of Free Will Baptist Churches, Church of Christ in Christian union, as well, as the Church of England in my early times. I respect both sides of the isles.

    I'm NOT telling anyone that the Bible is less than what it is.

    I AM saying that the conversion of Souls is NOT done via a book, albeit a holy one. I will proclaim to the highest, that the Bible, KJ, whichever, is the Inspired works of God.

    I spent MORE time, in my youth, in Protestant hands, than Apostolic, and while I STILL love My Protestant Friends, all I'm saying is, there is a BIG difference, between proclaiming that the Holy Bible, is Inerrant, Vs. saying that it is a complete total guide toward Salvation. "YES," If I were alone on an Island, with just the KJ, or ANY Bible, and I were to be open to it's teachings, YES, I could secure my Salvation.

    God sent his ONLY Son, as a baby, in the flesh of man, to suffer, and die, to feel all that we do, hunger, tired, temptation, all of it, everything, to prove to us, him, and to satan, that it COULD be done. When he asked us, to break the bread, and to drink the wine, he gave his Beloved Apostles HIS bread and wine for that day, he at that point was Beatified, and they were weak, but he gave them, like he did for us, ALL HE HAD, ALL.

    People didn't gather round to read a book, Jesus, as a flesh and blood creature, was able to show the love inside, to break through to the inner Soul of those listening, and SHOW them his Truth. To speak to their hearts, to show them the way. Just handing them a Bible does NOT do the same, ever.

    We could throw Bible Verses around at each other ALL day, but Christ, as well as ANY devoted Apostle, then, or today, could convict the Heart and Soul of those they Witnessed to.

    I could, and I do, have my Beloved Grandmothers apple pie recipe, all of the ingredients are there, well written, but the way, THE truth of the cognitive skills to make it proper, are NOT there. My pie is NOT even close to hers.

    Souls are won, and lives changed, on a one to one basis, people are drawn to that positive inner light, that good vibration that we can't keep from radiating out of our being, and they ask us why, why we are SO happy, in a time of great trouble. As much as ANYONE may regard the Scriptures, they WILL NOT get that love and conviction from them, like they would being impressed upon by your inner light shining forth against the darkness of this world. The Church, ergo, the PEOPLE of Christ, were to St. Paul, the unshakable foundation of this Church, NOT the book, as Sacred as it may be. Christ DEMANDS that we seek, contact, and LOVE the least amongst us, he came unto this world as a swaddled baby, vulnerable, to see what we'd do with him.

    If you want to debate Mary, PLEASE open another thread. If you can't see the sacrifice Mary gave, the Blessedness of her conviction, as well as how her example should be looked upon by parents in difficult situations today, KNOWING how much Christ, and his Father LOVE children? then YOU need to re-think the roots of this Religion, because YOU missed something REALLY big.

    You go to Bible study, you and your kids, go to Sunday school, and you have a Pastor, Deacon, Rabbi, or Priest, who Sermons to you, so to say with JUST that in mind, that Sola Scriptura is valid is just wrong, and dangerous.
    "Come, my people, enter your houses and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little while until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isa. 26:20
    "My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid." John 14:27 Beau Soir

  2. #22
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    Show me in the Bible where it says the pope is infallible? You can't. Show me in the Bible where the office of the pope was ever started. You can't.

  3. #23
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    while it is true the apostles taught orally, the compilation of the teachings and the gospels are what they taught..the New Testament Book is our record of what they taught, it is their witness to us. to me that holds alot of weight as opposed to any church(es) that added to or taken away thru the centuries from what was originally taught.

    i know i tend to oversimplify things, but remaining with the words of Christ and teachings of the apostles just seems the right thing to do. i understand others feel different, that following a church is the way to go, but for me, every church ive ever been to, catholic, methodist, baptist, mormon, unitatian, etc has seemed to me to add things or focus on a part of the scripture to the exclusion of other parts in one way or another. thats just been my experience.

    so depending on the whole picture of scripture for my guidance is what ive chosen to do, that with alot of prayer and a good concordance. in these last days with all sorts of deceptions flying around in all sorts of churches, im just not sure i can trust anything but scripture.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
    Show me in the Bible where it says the pope is infallible? You can't. Show me in the Bible where the office of the pope was ever started. You can't.
    Matthew 16:18
    ~Kate

    Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. —Martin Luther, Christmas Sermon, 1529.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermantribe View Post
    Matthew 16:18

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    (Mat 16:1

    I asked to show me in the bible where the pope was infallible and this was the reply that I received. This has nothing to do with the pope or his supposed infallibility. Not even close.... Try again.

  6. #26
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    YOU need to re-think the roots of this Religion, because YOU missed something REALLY big.

    im sorry capt midnight, but in scripture, in the words of Christ and teachings of the apostles and of the early church i see nothing to support the churchs teachings about putting mary on a pedastal for honoring or adoration. i had mentioned this earlier not to debate the issue here (i have a thread on that already) but as an example of something ADDED to the church body that is not found in the words of Christ or teachings of the apostles.

    deviating from what was laid down for us by Christ and the apostles opens the door to doctrinal errors. we start relinquishing our personal responsibility to seek out God to others, relying on them to explain things right. thas where we can get into big trouble.

    you chasten me to rethink the roots of christianity, i have and i do. the root is the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. no one elses effort or sacrifice have any merit whatsoever.

    and generally, the logic being used in this case doesnt seem to mesh with the issue of which is more reliable, scripture itself versus teachings of an organized religion.

    an example, and im just trying to follow the logic, IF we rely on the church to interpret for us as opposed to putting our trust in and seeking the truth in scripture, we end up with a situation like what happened in the middle ages with the church. it taught an indulgence, a get out of purgatory / hell card can be bought, one price for peons, another for nobles.

    (im not picking on the catholic church, im using this example because at the time, this was the Only church, the organization that claimed to represent Christ on earth.)

    the church established this belief and sold these indulgences.

    such a thing was never in scripture or taught by Christ or the apostles.

    the masses Trusted the church was teaching them the Truth and was caring for their souls.

    but how many people never attempted or experienced true repentance because they had this get out of hell card sold to them by the church. they put their faith in what the church taught them and never went to scripture to find out if it was real or not because they could either not read or didnt own a copy of scripture. books were rare and expensive and at times was illegal to own a copy of scripture.

    the premise is boiled down to 'be a good church member', follow the rules and that will get you into heaven.

    later, much later, the church backed off of that teaching and stopped selling indulgences.

    so the church created a practice that was not found in scripture or supported by Christs teachings, made everyone adhere to it and later changed their position.

    thats what happens when we accept what an organization tells us and dont check it out with scripture for ourselves. this is an example of a church making something up. it was blindly followed by the masses. and it was not true.

    if we dont use scripture to guide and ground us in all things, we can fall for about anything someone tells us.

    i think this is another example where sola scriptura proves itself.

    the church is supposed to be the vehicle of the teachings of Christ, it is the body of Christ, not the head. the church doesnt save, coming to Christ in repentance saves, it doesnt matter if a person comes to Christ outside the church, any church, by reading scripture or by attending a church.

    if it is true it is the church that ;saves;, then logically no one who had an experience of Christ outside the church is actually saved....again, the logic of that doesnt mesh with the teachings of Christ.

    Jesus said "Come to ME", "All who believe in ME shall be saved" ........he didnt say come to my church and be saved.

    im not trying to be contentious, im trying to follow the thread of logic being used in this area.

    there is too much evidence of churches ADDING things, ideas, practices outside of what scripture teaches, so again, sola scriptura, following scripture alone seems much wiser.

    just wanted to add that many of us have different 'church homes', where we feel nourished and our spiritual path with Christ supported. i believe we are where we are meant to be until the Lord leads us to a new place to learn and grown in another area. some study on their own, not yet finding a church family, but all are the body of Christ and are saved if they have a personal relationship with Christ thru repentance and being obedient to the Holy Spirit.
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  7. #27
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    Sigh. I'm not in any position to make judgements as to who, in what Church, is or isn't saved. I will, with JUST perhaps one or two far fetched examples, not tell you that any one particular Denomination is, or isn't plugged into the works of the Holy Spirit.

    Every month or so, just for fun, I will google up best case estimates as to how the explosion is going in the Protestant movement, and if there EVER was a big bang theory proof, the average was at about 35,000 in the US and ever growing. The only thing they all agree on, is that they've "got it right," and that the Apostles Churches are evil.

    There ARE 23 Episcopal chairs in the Vatican, only ONE of them is the dreaded Popes. I find it cute how many non practicing Catholics, as well as Protestants I meet, who think that all who Worship in the Apostles Churches, are Roman ergo "Romish."

    I can't play the Sacred Scripture game, because where we are, right now, we can't even agree on a playing field. So to use the Bible as a weapon against each other, is not of the Spirit, and just makes us all look silly.

    Once more, the Bible is without error, the inspired work of God, through men. It is one of the means, where I can go, to a still place, and open my heart, and by in Communion with my Creator, I can do so, with a Protestant Bible, or one here in the house, any accepted version will do, Grace and the Holy Spirit, are MORE than able to effortlessly work around any and all tampering by men, and there have been plenty.

    That is NOT the same, as this PERHAPS? well intended, officious sounding slogan of the last decade, Sola Scriptura." It is a THOUGHT KILLING CLICHE' that allows one to close their hearts, close their minds, and like I'm telling you, we can look around, and SEE the destruction throughout Christendom from these kinds of short sighted attempts to sway minds. You can attempt to prop it up with citing Verse, but the fruits are withering on the vines, my Friends.

    Even as few as perhaps 20yrs. ago, on ethics and morals, all of the Churches in this nation agreed on almost everything, now? we see the pressure to look the other way on abortion ( God, have Mercy.) the death penalty, gay weddings, and gay clergy. Pray tell me where this is condoned in your Complete handbook, that absolves YOU, from going forth and sharing the inner light of Christ with the lowest of the low? "well, you can go get the book, so, it's on YOU." well, my Friends, just as all of our common problems are manifestations of original sin, so to is it OUR common problem to reach out, to work, to give everything we can, to work toward the Salvation of our fellow man, to teach them, to SHOW them, to draw them toward us, take them with us as we get closer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

    The ONLY reason 98% of you bought into the Sola deal, is because someone TAUGHT that to you, and you swallowed it in, as well as.

    Besides common sense, historical facts, and the times we live in, why then would one need to bother with Worshiping with others? to go and BE with our Holy Family? we got this book? it tells us how everyone is going to hell?

    And Marry, is a BIG deal in the Sorrowful Passion, that she shared in with her son, no? do you suppose that he would come forth from less than she? you people always ask why we care so much for Mary, WHY do YOU people have such disdain for her? seems MUCH more weird to me, the Protestant bent to consider her more the whore, than anything close to being Blessed, and setting the bar of Motherhood in tough times rather high, you tell ME why it SO bothers you to claim to value EVERY human life, but Mary's not so much.

    I will let you guy's know when you get to 45k Denominations! I'm also sure your aware of the large numbers of fed up Christians coming back to the Apostles Churches, as it's been remarked upon by secular, AND Christian media, a lot in fact.

    I know I did, and the longer I'm over here, the more I want to see more of you come and see!!
    "You Can't MAKE this stuff up."


    They cast their silver into the streets, and their gold is like an unclean thing. Their silver and gold are not able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the Lord. They cannot satisfy their hunger or fill their stomachs with it. For it was the stumbling block of their iniquity.
    Ezekiel 7:19




  8. #28
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    Mary without question is the most honored woman in heaven as the mother of the Lamb. However, some of the teachings in the Roman denomination are not supported by scripture. For instance, in Luke's gospel chapter 1 verse 47 Mary says "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior". Note her choice of the word "Savior". What kind of person needs a Savior? One who needs to be saved from the penalty of their SINS. Mary was a sinning mortal who needed God's forgiveness just like the rest of us. And in Mark's gospel Mary's other children are named (James, Joses, Juda, Simon, and Salome). So much for the Roman denomination's concept of "perpetual virgin". When John in Revelation 19 began to worship the angel in his presence, he was reprimanded by being told to only worship God and no other. If a holy sinless angel was unworthy of worship, then with her past forgiven sins certainly Mary doesn't qualify.

    As far as the reputation of the Roman denomination, history is NOT on their side. The Spanish inquisition, the extensive medieval tortures documented in the Martyr's Mirror (I have a copy - it is a thick book- it specifies the dates and the names of the families tortured to death back then as well as the names of the priests and bishops doing the deeds), Galileo - who lived under lifelong house arrest for daring to suggest that the Earth revolved around the Sun, and nowadays with their priests' criminal acts of homosexual pedophilia being exposed. I would suggest that rather than dissing other true churches as false assemblies, they should be ever so grateful that the real Christian Churches don't all collectively shun them for being the apostates that they are.

  9. #29
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    "The ONLY reason 98% of you bought into the Sola deal, is because someone TAUGHT that to you, and you swallowed it in, as well as."

    not true. i was catholic, for a long time. i once believed we needed the church to guide us and i trusted it for my salvation. it was when i started reading and studying scripture with a concordance, praying for God to help me understand that i started seeing some things that puzzled me. i started seeing a real difference between what scripture taught and what the RCC taught. it was a problem to me. that led me to looking into history to see what was going on with the RCC. i wanted to get a full picture.

    i saw there exists a difference between what Christ and the apostles taught and what the RCC developed into. it took me years to accept there WAS a difference, because i didnt want to.

    then i started searching out all the letters and documents the early church had, and saw what they believed and taught and discussed, i wanted to go to the beginning, it was then i really started to see better and get a fuller picture.

    i encourage everyone to go look up the early churchs writings and how the church developed. we all need to know this stuff. we need to know our history.

    oh, i have never, ever seen or heard any protestant have disdain for mary or consider her a whore. she is considered a holy woman. where the heck do you get that she is called a whore? sheeesh.

    i have, however, seen many, many people crawl on their knees, decorate statures with robes, crowns, flowers, light candles to, pray repeatedly to, beg and weep over statues, make sacrifices to an image of a woman they assume (because the church encourages them to) will help them, save them, bless them, heal them, help them get to heaven, believing that this woman has power and authority to do anything.

    and it simply is not true. its made up.

    thru history, the church has elevated dear mary to this position by declaring her born without sin, never dying but being assumed into heaven, a perpetual virgin, titling her mother of God, Queen of Heaven, etc, etc. if you go back and study the history of the church you can plainly see who brought this up and why, who in the church disagreed with this and why, the politics and the arguments. it is fascinating, really. but a tradition of men nonetheless that created dangerous implications.

    protestants just believe this over emphasis and devotion is misguided and spiritually dangerous as Christ Jesus is The Only Way and The Only Truth----His words.

    when an organization thru history has repeatedly violated its mandate and continually poses as The Voice of Christ, does not repeant or clean house i think it loses not only its authority but relevancy. its no different than a jimmy swaggart. the RCC is no different, it too has its jimmy swaggarts, just hides them better.

    yes, the body of Christ is sadly divided. not all churchs claiming to be christian are actually christian. it is the spirit of religion that divides us, it is people following a leader, a prophet, a prophecy teacher, or a long held tradition as opposed to following the simple words of Christ that we are divided. it is sin and pride and arrogance that divides us.

    and the RCC is divided into factions also, it is not all one homogenous happy family either. i did a search once (in a post on a forum defending the RCC by the way) and found there are dozens and dozens of different 'types' of catholics and catholic understandings.

    Sola Scriptura has alot of history behind why it has become so important. it wasnt just one day made up because someone was in a snit, it was in response to long term abuses and corruption of leaders of the church.

    it is important because the church historically has done some very wrong things, diverged from the Truth of scripture and flat out made some things up. they is why some people feel they cannot trust the church anymore, so they turn to scripture.

    Sola Scriptura guides us back to God truth and Gods teachings if we humble ourselves.

    if you find spiritual nourishment and a closer walk with Christ Jesus within that church, good for you and God bless you.

    but for some of us, we could not, so we seek our closer walk with Christ in scripture trying to be faithful and obedient to Him as opposed to an organization.

    i dont seek to batter you or anyone with scripture, or belittle you or change you. i just want people to THINK and EXAMINE as opposed to just follow when a claim is made the RCC is the one true church.

    they have proved to me to have lost the right to that title long time ago, no matter what they claim today.

    so Sola Scriptura---"the doctrine that the Bible is the only infallible and inerrant authority for Christian faith, and that it contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness" has become my guide to follow Christ. it is the only thing i feel i can trust.
    ***************************
    There is Only Jesus--no other worthy of honors or prayers or devotion. Anything or anyone else are end times deceptions distracting us from fully knowing Christ. There is No Other.

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  10. #30
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    jazzy, thank you for a most excellent and holy post.
    "Come, my people, enter your houses and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourself for a little while until the indignation is past. For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity." Isa. 26:20
    "My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid." John 14:27 Beau Soir

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