Concerning Spiritual Gifts

[Emily]

The problem with the focus on spiritual gifts is that it becomes all about self.

Everything that is good, everything that is pure, everything that is of God points to Christ and to His glory, not our own.

It is in our weakness that He is strong. It isn't about self edification about 'our gifts' but all about God's glory and everything points to Christ and His gift of grace.

Any gift that a person has needs to be served in humility and without self.

We are not to covet anything.

We do not wield the power of the Spirit. We are vessels of love and ambassadors of Christ. We are to become like Christ. He is humble and gentle in spirit.

Again, it is through our weakness that He is strong. It is through our struggles that His light and mercy shines.

[Daytonabill0001]

The problem with the focus on spiritual gifts is that it becomes all about self.

That appears to be your problem, spiritual gifts are the tools that Jesus uses to minister God's Love through the Holy Spirit, in turn through us yielded vessels, to a lost and dieing world... Look at Jesus, He is the model showing how the Holy Spirit works...

Everything that is good, everything that is pure, everything that is of God points to Christ and to His glory, not our own.

It is in our weakness that He is strong.

I agree with that, it's all about Jesus, He is our Head. If we obey Him when He tells us to do something to minister to someone, then He gets the glory and that person is blessed.

It isn't about self edification about 'our gifts' but all about God's glory and everything points to Christ and His gift of grace.

You won't find that taught in the Word and your statement as a whole reveals your imperfect understanding of "self edification". First of all, the nine gifts of the Holy spirit is used publicly under the unction of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of ministering to the public and when used only under the Holy Spirit's direction, always points to Jesus and glorifies Jesus. When you pray in the spirit in your privacy, then you are edified. That's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:4,

(AMP) He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness].

(Bishops) He that speaketh with the tongue, edifieth hym selfe: he that prophesieth, edifieth the Churche.

(Darby) He that speaks with a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the assembly.

(EMTV) He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

(Geneva) He that speaketh strange language, edifieth himselfe: but hee that prophecieth, edifieth the Church.

(GW) When a person speaks in another language, he helps himself grow. But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he helps the church grow.

(KJV) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

(KJV+) He that speakethG2980 in an unknown tongueG1100 edifiethG3618 himself;G1438 butG1161 he that prophesiethG4395 edifiethG3618 the church.G1577

(LITV) The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up an assembly.

(MSG) The one who prays using a private "prayer language" certainly gets a lot out of it, but proclaiming God's truth to the church in its common language brings the whole church into growth and strength.

(Webster) He that speaketh in an unknown language edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

(WNT) He who speaks in an unknown tongue does good to himself, but he who prophesies does good to the Church.

(YLT) he who is speaking in an unknown tongue, himself doth edify, and he who is prophesying, an assembly doth edify;

Any gift that a person has needs to be served in humility and without self.

We are not to covet anything.

Please study to show yourself approved... Paul, under the unction of the Holy Spirit wrote that we are to covet eagerly the best gifts in;

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

We do not wield the power of the Spirit.

No, we are not to 'wield' as if we, in ourselves, have total control of the ministerial gift. We are to yield to the Holy Spirit because we are His vessels.

We are vessels of love and ambassadors of Christ. We are to become like Christ. He is humble and gentle in spirit.

Which is the reason we have to yield to Him, if we are to be used in a mighty and powerful way that brings glory to the Lord.

Again, it is through our weakness that He is strong.

But if you don't yield to the Holy Spirit the way Jesus yielded to the Holy Spirit, then you can't be strong in His might.

It is through our struggles that His light and mercy shines.

Only if, in our struggles, we learn and gain the victory from it and glorify the Lord by it, after all, John said in;

1Jn_5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

He didn't say, "for whatsoever is born of God struggleth". No, if we follow His commands and His directions as recorded in His Word, which He left for us, we should, with the Holy Spirit our teacher, learn from our mistakes and grow into spiritual representations of who we really are. To wit, kings. Isn't Jesus the King of Kings? Who are the kings? we are, not only in the world to come, but we are supposed to occupy in this world, too.

So, if there's a struggle, learn God's remedy for it and through your faith in what God said, obtain the victory...

Hallelujah!

[Emily]

That appears to be your problem,

I don't have a 'problem.' I simply disagree with you. Someone disagreeing with you does not naturally interpret into the one you disagree with having a 'problem.'

spiritual gifts are the tools that Jesus uses to minister God's Love through the Holy Spirit, in turn through us yielded vessels, to a lost and dieing world.

Actually, the way my walk has been differs with your view and observing my Grandmother who had the most beautiful walk with Jesus I have ever seen, had no 'gifts' or coveted any 'gifts.'
She was a humble woman who loved others unconditionally. She gave of herself, her time, her possessions, whatever was asked and yet never was in need herself (or ever appeared to be).

She could go through the worst of times that would make the rest of us cry out and fall to our knees in anger or frustration to be rescued - but she walked through it with perfect peace and perfect joy, never wavering from her love for others and her giving heart and praising the Lord.

She never preached a day in her life. If you asked her how it was she had such love and joy and peace and it never wavered she would only say one word, 'Jesus.'

Those of us who were privileged to witness her amazing walk wanted to know Him as she knew Him. She was the walking gospel. The evidence and witness of His love and peace and joy was unquestionably supernatural.

.. Look at Jesus, He is the model showing how the Holy Spirit works...I agree with that, it's all about Jesus, He is our Head. If we obey Him when He tells us to do something to minister to someone, then He gets the glory and that person is blessed.

We yield our will to Him. Through yielding to Him, our lives are a witness to others.

You won't find that taught in the Word and your statement as a whole reveals your imperfect understanding of "self edification".

Young man, I have seen the 'self edification' that goes on among those who believe in the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit as you are discussing them. It is not about Christ. It is all about self and 'Look at me' and the gifts I have and how special I am. It is complete heresy and not what Paul meant at all.

Coveting 'gifts' IS about self no matter how much you try to say it isn't.

First of all, the nine gifts of the Holy spirit is used publicly under the unction of the Holy Spirit for the purpose of ministering to the public and when used only under the Holy Spirit's direction, always points to Jesus and glorifies Jesus. When you pray in the spirit in your privacy, then you are edified. That's what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:4,

(AMP) He who speaks in a [strange] tongue edifies and improves himself, but he who prophesies [interpreting the divine will and purpose and teaching with inspiration] edifies and improves the church and promotes growth [in Christian wisdom, piety, holiness, and happiness].

(Bishops) He that speaketh with the tongue, edifieth hym selfe: he that prophesieth, edifieth the Churche.

(Darby) He that speaks with a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the assembly.

(EMTV) He who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

(Geneva) He that speaketh strange language, edifieth himselfe: but hee that prophecieth, edifieth the Church.

(GW) When a person speaks in another language, he helps himself grow. But when a person speaks what God has revealed, he helps the church grow.

(KJV) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

(KJV+) He that speakethG2980 in an unknown tongueG1100 edifiethG3618 himself;G1438 butG1161 he that prophesiethG4395 edifiethG3618 the church.G1577

(LITV) The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up an assembly.

(MSG) The one who prays using a private "prayer language" certainly gets a lot out of it, but proclaiming God's truth to the church in its common language brings the whole church into growth and strength.

(Webster) He that speaketh in an unknown language edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

(WNT) He who speaks in an unknown tongue does good to himself, but he who prophesies does good to the Church.

(YLT) he who is speaking in an unknown tongue, himself doth edify, and he who is prophesying, an assembly doth edify; Please study to show yourself approved... Paul, under the unction of the Holy Spirit wrote that we are to covet eagerly the best gifts in;

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Anyone who quotes from 'the Message' is reduced dramatically in my view of their understanding of scripture. Even the writer of that monstrosity said he was shocked that people use it as a Bible.

No, we are not to 'wield' as if we, in ourselves, have total control of the ministerial gift. We are to yield to the Holy Spirit because we are His vessels.Which is the reason we have to yield to Him, if we are to be used in a mighty and powerful way that brings glory to the Lord.But if you don't yield to the Holy Spirit the way Jesus yielded to the Holy Spirit, then you can't be strong in His might. Only if, in our struggles, we learn and gain the victory from it and glorify the Lord by it, after all, John said in;

1Jn_5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

He didn't say, "for whatsoever is born of God struggleth".

If everyone who came to God became healthy and wealthy and had no struggles then everyone would come.

You have a very skewed view of the gospel message and of our role in His work. He doesn't need us to do His work. He is the only one who can convert a sinners heart. We are offered the privilege to join Him in His work and if He chooses to use us, then we are give that great gift in however He chooses to use us in whatever way He decides. I am not going to 'covet' how He does that or what tool He uses. If God uses me in the tiniest way, I am incredibly humbled.

You and I can agree to disagree but I have seen the world you are involved in and it is not pretty. It also is steeped in pride and angst by those who don't have 'gifts' yet and it leaves behind the true gifts of the Spirit:
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

I am fully content with His gift of grace and love.
I try everyday to honor Him by yielding to the Holy Spirit to let His fruit be evident in my life as a witness to the world as my Grandmother did. I know I will fail often but I will get back up and keep trying.

If He ever sees fit to use me in any way, He knows I am a willing vessel. I covet nothing more from Him and humbly serve Him in joyful praise, comforting my brothers and sisters, and contending for the faith even when I face name calling and anger.

[david777]

I don't have a 'problem.' I simply disagree with you. Someone disagreeing with you does not naturally interpret into the one you disagree with having a 'problem.'

Actually, the way my walk has been differs with your view and observing my Grandmother who had the most beautiful walk with Jesus I have ever seen, had no 'gifts' or coveted any 'gifts.'
She was a humble woman who loved others unconditionally. She gave of herself, her time, her possessions, whatever was asked and yet never was in need herself (or ever appeared to be).

She could go through the worst of times that would make the rest of us cry out and fall to our knees in anger or frustration to be rescued - but she walked through it with perfect peace and perfect joy, never wavering from her love for others and her giving heart and praising the Lord.

She never preached a day in her life. If you asked her how it was she had such love and joy and peace and it never wavered she would only say one word, 'Jesus.'

Those of us who were privileged to witness her amazing walk wanted to know Him as she knew Him. She was the walking gospel. The evidence and witness of His love and peace and joy was unquestionably supernatural.
We yield our will to Him. Through yielding to Him, our lives are a witness to others.

Young man, I have seen the 'self edification' that goes on among those who believe in the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit as you are discussing them. It is not about Christ. It is all about self and 'Look at me' and the gifts I have and how special I am. It is complete heresy and not what Paul meant at all.

Coveting 'gifts' IS about self no matter how much you try to say it isn't.
Anyone who quotes from 'the Message' is reduced dramatically in my view of their understanding of scripture. Even the writer of that monstrosity said he was shocked that people use it as a Bible.

If everyone who came to God became healthy and wealthy and had no struggles then everyone would come.

You have a very skewed view of the gospel message and of our role in His work. He doesn't need us to do His work. He is the only one who can convert a sinners heart. We are offered the privilege to join Him in His work and if He chooses to use us, then we are give that great gift in however He chooses to use us in whatever way He decides. I am not going to 'covet' how He does that or what tool He uses. If God uses me in the tiniest way, I am incredibly humbled.

You and I can agree to disagree but I have seen the world you are involved in and it is not pretty. It also is steeped in pride and angst by those who don't have 'gifts' yet and it leaves behind the true gifts of the Spirit:
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

I am fully content with His gift of grace and love.
I try everyday to honor Him by yielding to the Holy Spirit to let His fruit be evident in my life as a witness to the world as my Grandmother did. I know I will fail often but I will get back up and keep trying.

If He ever sees fit to use me in any way, He knows I am a willing vessel. I covet nothing more from Him and humbly serve Him in joyful praise, comforting my brothers and sisters, and contending for the faith even when I face name calling and anger.

Thank you Emily, for your posts on this thread. I couldn't agree more with your position concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I too have tried with Bill to have him understand that when we make our journey with Christ all about the "gifts", it is inevitable that, being human, it soon turns to things of the ego and pride, as we exalt those who seem to display the gifts, and we then exalt the gifts themselves.

I too thought he was a much younger man, because of his stridency concerning so many issues.

Bill, we love you as brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus loves you. It is not compulsory to try to sledgehammer your beliefs onto others. We have all read the Bible for many years. If your interpretation leaves you to think that a true walk with Christ requires being adept in signs and wonders, and the continual displaying of these wonders, than so be it. I will walk with Christ until my dying days secure in the comfort of the knowledge that the degree to which God loves me does not depend in any way on my display of signs and wonders, or lack of same.

Bill, please read up a little on Smith Wigglesworth, before totally embracing his doctrine. Here is a good link to start with: http://www.bereanresearchinstitute.com/03_Doctrines/D.0005_Smith_Wigglesworth_A_Book_Review_of_Penteco stal_Teachings.html

[Daytonabill0001]

The problem with the focus on spiritual gifts is that it becomes all about self.

Everything that is good, everything that is pure, everything that is of God points to Christ and to His glory, not our own.

It is in our weakness that He is strong. It isn't about self edification about 'our gifts' but all about God's glory and everything points to Christ and His gift of grace.

Any gift that a person has needs to be served in humility and without self.

Agreed

Young man, I have seen the 'self edification' that goes on among those who believe in the gifts and the power of the Holy Spirit as you are discussing them. It is not about Christ. It is all about self and 'Look at me' and the gifts I have and how special I am. It is complete heresy and not what Paul meant at all.

Coveting 'gifts' IS about self no matter how much you try to say it isn't.

We are not to covet anything.

??? I'm all of 55 years old, you must be older than I...

Read 1Co_12:31 and what you have seen is called "spiritual pride' and yet, it still does not negate the validity of the scriptures. You are in error and fear, because what Paul and John the Apostle teaches under the Holy Spirit's direction will never change or go away. God's word will not pass away before the earth passes away. That's Jesus' quote...

We do not wield the power of the Spirit. We are vessels of love and ambassadors of Christ. We are to become like Christ. He is humble and gentle in spirit.

Again, it is through our weakness that He is strong. It is through our struggles that His light and mercy shines.

Emily, you must be lacking in reading comprehension, I never said anything about taking over what the Holy Spirit starts. How did you get that from what Smith Wigglesworth said? Have you even read any of it? To me, you sound like you just skipped all the way to the quote button and started on your spiel... I bet you didn't even read past one or two paragraphs, did you?

For your information, Paul suggests to us in 1Co_12:31,

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Why? To serve Him in continuing His ministry on earth, through His body (that's us), of which He is the Head. We are to serve Him, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, who does the works, we just provide a willing vessel.

Just as Jesus explained, it's not Him that does the works, it's the Holy Spirit. The same is true of us. Try and cast out a demon without the unction from the Holy Spirit and see what happens...

Emily, I understand the respect you have for your grandmother and if you want to emulate her, that is your choice, but I have to ask you something... Did your grandmother ever browbeat anyone like you have done to me?

She had a peaceable heart and nobody could make her upset, except on very rare occasions. I'm saying that she left things alone and let God speak for Himself. I'm right, aren't I?

All of the errors that you witnessed were very clear instances of bad leadership and training. Does that negate God's instructions to us on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?

If you believe that, then how can you allow preachers to continue, knowing that there are a few that have gotten way off into error? Equal protection, justice and all of that...

If some have gotten off into error with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, causing you to speak out against them, then why don't you do the same with the preachers who have gone off into error? You should be spending equal energy trying to discourage us from preaching.

Emily, bad training produces bad trainees. If pride gets in, then the Holy Spirit will not get involved. Was there any training whatsoever? Were they instructed in Holiness and sanctification? Was it even taught that this is a very serious thing, to always be on call for the Holy Spirit, 24/7?

He can and is quite capable of taking care of things. I can guarantee you that the Holy Spirit was trying to say something to them, but the noise in their selves must have drowned Him out.

I'll bet that church has either straightened themselves out by now, or their church attendance is in decline as the Holy Spirit gets people's attention and pulls them out, to restart their training...What did you do, when you saw all of the stuff that you disagreed with? Did you intercede for them?

[Emily]

Yes, I am older than you but I truly had no idea you were of that age based on your writing, euphemisms, and emotional outbursts I've seen from you in many threads. I always considered it was based on your young age.

[Daytonabill0001]

Yes, I am older than you but I truly had no idea you were of that age based on your writing, euphemisms, and emotional outbursts I've seen from you in many threads. I always considered it was based on your young age.

Well Emily, that's really funny because I always thought the same about you, especially because of your very pointed tongue that I have seen directed on other people.

I have also noticed that you seem to have a problem with my vocabulary. Emily, you do me a great disservice when you respond to my posts in the manner that you are famous for. I would rather that in the future, you would refrain from your adversarial tongued style and if you still can't keep it inside of you, then perhaps you can open another thread denouncing whatever it is that you disagree with.

Yes, please open your own thread so the others can see your heart in your posts and they will notice that I don't come over to your threads and stir up trouble...

Seeing that the Lord put it on my heart to post these Smith Wigglesworth articles, I will continue to obey and if you still have a problem, then zip it and take it to the Lord and if you still won't turn loose from it, then again, please open another thread with your grievances and you can happily attack whatever on it. I promise I will never join the feud.

You should consider that if the Lord has put it on my heart, to talk about what is on His Heart, so He can talk to the reader about the subject (planting a spiritual seed), then who are you to come in and turn what God is doing into a slow train wreck?

Yes, you have turned this relationship into some kind of feud and I will not partake of it. You can cavort to your heart's delight somewhere else.

I am still going to research the connection between the cessationists and the purposeful ignoring of the warning from Jesus about giving credit to satan for Holy Ghost ministerial activities .

That really caught my attention, I have to thank you for that nugget... So, our conversation has been of some benefit to me and I hope, others also.

Goodbye, Emily and may the blessing of Abraham rest upon you in it's full manifestation...

[Emily]

Well Emily, that's really funny because I always thought the same about you, especially because of your very pointed tongue that I have seen directed on other people.

I have also noticed that you seem to have a problem with my vocabulary. Emily, you do me a great disservice when you respond to my posts in the manner that you are famous for. I would rather that in the future, you would refrain from your adversarial tongued style and if you still can't keep it inside of you, then perhaps you can open another thread denouncing whatever it is that you disagree with.

Yes, please open your own thread so the others can see your heart in your posts and they will notice that I don't come over to your threads and stir up trouble...

Seeing that the Lord put it on my heart to post these Smith Wigglesworth articles, I will continue to obey and if you still have a problem, then zip it and take it to the Lord and if you still won't turn loose from it, then again, please open another thread with your grievances and you can happily attack whatever on it. I promise I will never join the feud.

You should consider that if the Lord has put it on my heart, to talk about what is on His Heart, so He can talk to the reader about the subject (planting a spiritual seed), then who are you to come in and turn what God is doing into a slow train wreck?

Yes, you have turned this relationship into some kind of feud and I will not partake of it. You can cavort to your heart's delight somewhere else.

I am still going to research the connection between the cessationists and the purposeful ignoring of the warning from Jesus about giving credit to satan for Holy Ghost ministerial activities .

That really caught my attention, I have to thank you for that nugget... So, our conversation has been of some benefit to me and I hope, others also.

Goodbye, Emily and may the blessing of Abraham rest upon you in it's full manifestation...

Well, just like you feel 'led' to post as you do - so do I. I contend for the truth and will not be silenced to let what I see to be wrong stand without challenge.

The fact that you find such personal affront from someone disagreeing with you is sad on so many levels. It is funny that those who disagree with me see me as adversarial but everyone who agrees with me sees me as a loving warrior for the Lord.

What I do and say, I do because I feel compelled to do so to defend the faith and to present what I have learned that is different than what is being presented. But it is always in love.

None of what I post is meant to be 'adversarial' but to share what I have learned and then leave the final results to the Lord to each heart.

If you think you are going to stand unopposed then you are not putting on the armor or seeking the truth. You are setting yourself up for hurt after hurt and taking what is meant as debate and discussion as personal attacks and you will find yourself saying 'goodbye' to a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ.

If you think you have all the answers and you have nothing more to learn (especially someone who even considers the Message to be representative of God's word) then you may want to consider that you do yourself a disservice in not keeping an open heart and mind.

All of this is said in love and if you could hear the inflection of my voice then you would know that is true.

[Steven]

Daytona, thanks for sharing that. I am constantly in need of reminder to seek and place God first in prayer and petition. Maybe one day I will stop having to re-discover that moment of realization that I have failed to put first things first. Very edifying. Good reminder. Also encouraging in that the writer's flesh based decision was, in the end, covered over after his moment of realization and subsequent effort to seek God in the matter...