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Thread: Differences between HRM and Judaizers

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    Default Differences between HRM and Judaizers

    I'm trying really hard to understand this Hebrew Roots information that I get in bits and pieces. You know I struggle with the Sabbath and what to do with that law...

    Anyway, if you follow HRM or are VERY familiar with its teachings, then would you please tell me what the DIFFERENCES are between people who follow some laws some as dietary, circumcism, sabbath, passover observances, etc., (which I think are HRM) and those that were named Judaizers in Paul's day.



    Did Judaizers believe that you had to follow the laws in order to be saved, or once you were saved by Jesus Christ that you had to follow the laws? Did they equate following the laws with gaining salvation, or were they okay with people becoming Christians, but felt they needed to follow Jewish laws to be in line with God's will? What if they didn't follow the laws, did they feel salvation would be lost?

    It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jersusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

    My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don't feel it's necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?
    Last edited by LabbyLove; 09-14-2011 at 01:07 PM.

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    Please list differences only - I want to get a grasp on this the easiest way I know how

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    Salvation is found ONLY in Yeshua and His sacrifice, it cannot be earned. The law cannot save, it can only point out sin...and blessings for obedience to it!

    Judaizers had imposed so many added laws that it was a yoke and a burden...sabbath restrictions, handwashing ordinances...it goes on and on. Yeshua smashed their paradigm to pieces, magnifying Torah and setting it back to where it should be.

    Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the TORAH, and make it honourable.

    Isa 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

    Isa 42:23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

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    Sorry, wrong thread.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

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    Quote Originally Posted by LabbyLove View Post
    I'm trying really hard to understand this Hebrew Roots information that I get in bits and pieces. You know I struggle with the Sabbath and what to do with that law...

    Anyway, if you follow HRM or are VERY familiar with its teachings, then would you please tell me what the DIFFERENCES are between people who follow some laws some as dietary, circumcism, sabbath, passover observances, etc., (which I think are HRM) and those that were named Judaizers in Paul's day.



    Did Judaizers believe that you had to follow the laws in order to be saved, or once you were saved by Jesus Christ that you had to follow the laws? Did they equate following the laws with gaining salvation, or were they okay with people becoming Christians, but felt they needed to follow Jewish laws to be in line with God's will? What if they didn't follow the laws, did they feel salvation would be lost?

    It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jersusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

    My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don't feel it's necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?
    The English term "Judaizer" isn't in the KJV of the Bible although there could be said to be a reference to the term in Gal 2:14 by the use of the Greek word "Ioudaizo". Here is Thayer's definition:

    1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
    1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews

    Also, the HRM isn't a formal organization that has a set of beliefs for membership so you would expect to see some variation in the beliefs of someone who is associated in some way with the HRM. I know that some in the HRM believe that Jews who reject Christ are still saved if they follow the Law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    The English term "Judaizer" isn't in the KJV of the Bible although there could be said to be a reference to the term in Gal 2:14 by the use of the Greek word "Ioudaizo". Here is Thayer's definition:

    1) to adopt Jewish customs and rites, imitate the Jews, Judaise
    1a) one who observes the ritual law of the Jews
    Yes...the added traditions and baggage not found in Scripture:

    Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    Mar 7:10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

    Mar 7:11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother,It isCorban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;he shall be free.

    Mar 7:12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

    Mar 7:13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
    Or like this:

    Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

    Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Mat 15:4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

    Mat 15:5But ye say, Whosoever shall say tohisfather orhismother,It isa gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

    Mat 15:6And honour not his father or his mother,he shall be free.Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

    Mat 15:7Yehypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

    Mat 15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me withtheirlips; but their heart is far from me.

    Mat 15:9But in vain they do worship me, teachingfordoctrines the commandments of men.


    He's not too happy with traditions of men! He NEVER railed on anyone for proper observance of His instructions...of course, he wrote 'em!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
    Salvation is found ONLY in Yeshua and His sacrifice, it cannot be earned. The law cannot save, it can only point out sin...and blessings for obedience to it!

    Judaizers had imposed so many added laws that it was a yoke and a burden...sabbath restrictions, handwashing ordinances...it goes on and on. Yeshua smashed their paradigm to pieces, magnifying Torah and setting it back to where it should be.

    Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the TORAH, and make it honourable.

    Isa 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

    Isa 42:23 Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

    So you are saying one DIFFERENCE is that the Judaizers were forcing them to follow the added laws from the Talmud, not Torah, whereas HRM does not? Trying to contrast the two...

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    Thanks for starting this thread LL. I'll be checking back to find out the differences.
    We wanted a FIGHTER. We got a fighter in Trump. He will not take anything laying down. Trump or Bust.




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    Hi LabbyLove,

    Bank tellers, when trained to identify counterfeit money, are trained first to become thoroughly familiar with genuine money. They handle it, examine it, study it, becoming so familiar with it's look and feel that when a counterfeit bill comes across their path, something will feel/seem 'off' enough to them that they will examine it further.

    That's how it was for me when the concepts/teachings in the Hebrew Roots Movement came across my path. The perspective was fascinating; the motives of its followers seemed to be pure. After all they were just doing what they were doing because they love and want to obey and please God, right? Yet something seemed a little 'off' to me, so I determined to learn more.

    As a Christian I understood how the Feasts of God, Sabbaths and other observances in Mosaic Covenant Law pointed to Christ and for some to decide to celebrate them now in order to learn the beauty of how the Law points to Christ did not disturb me at all.

    I have Jewish/Hebrew Christian friends who maintain their heritage and traditions of Feasts and Days and dietary observances. They see the beauty of God's provision of the Law for Israel and take great joy in celebrating Jesus, the Fulfillment of what the Law pointed to. It is no longer Law to them now, however. Their lives revolve around the Reality in Christ, not around the shadows of the Law.

    Then I started hearing things like, "If you really love God, you will keep His Laws - all of them", "If you don't keep God's Law, you'll be called least in the kingdom", "If you're really saved, you'll keep the Law", "Jesus is coming back for the Bride - if you don't keep the Law you aren't part of the Bride" . . . and more. You may have heard similar things said in a more 'round-about way.

    As I heard those things and heard more teaching from those who had chosen Torah observance, many Scriptures came to mind. The teachings that I was hearing were not matching up with what my heart had hidden deep within me - the Word. It is not the ‘teachings from pastors or church fathers’ or the ‘brainwashing of the modern church’ which cause me to disagree with the teachings I have discerned as false, it is the Word hidden in my heart! I’d see a teaching and the thought process behind it (which more often than not seemed reasonable on the surface), but it wouldn’t sit right in my heart. The words of Scripture would come to mind, I’d go look them up, and sure enough, error was revealed in whatever particular teaching by a plain reading of the Word.

    It seems that you may be experiencing some of the same from what you say here:
    Quote Originally Posted by LabbyLove View Post
    It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jersusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.
    Judaizers, in one form or another, have been around since the infancy of the Body of Christ. They come in many forms . . . the sect that Paul addressed directly in the letter to the Galatians, those who have more concern about religious observance than about abiding in Christ, and more recently, those in the HRM streams of thought who preach adherence to Mosaic Covenant Law in addition to the simplicity of the Gospel.

    In short, and in principle, a Judaizer is anyone who adds to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To be saved or to stay saved, it's Jesus + (insert pet theology here). While the term Judaizer definitely lends itself to the Law and traditions given to Israel, the spirit behind Judaizing takes many forms and its intent is to take the believer's focus away from the complete work of Christ and abiding and resting in Him and to put the believer's focus and efforts into what they must do in order to be pleasing to God and remain in His good graces.

    So while the 'mechanics' of Judaizing or legalistic movements may be different from group to group and age to age, the underlying intent of the Enemy is the same: To take your focus off of Jesus and to turn your focus back to yourself (what do I have to do to please God, what do I have to do to receive status in the kingdom, what do I have to do to stay saved, what must I do to be a part of the Bride, etc.). The focus becomes very much on the flesh, and very little on the Spirit.

    As you read through the writings to the Body of Christ after Pentecost, you will see over and over how God shifts focus from the Law and the flesh to Jesus and the Spirit. It is not that Law ceases to be, it is that our relationship to Law changes. We die to the Law in Christ, and the Law becomes obsolete in Christ. The message is clear.

    If someone has to start telling you that the Scriptures don't really say what they clearly say and then they have to build linguistic or theological contraptions to make their point, then red flags should start going up.

    Be careful, as you consume HRM information in bits and pieces, that you don't become as the metaphorical 'frog in the pot'. Bit by bit is how many become deceived; if given the whole picture up front, many would reject false belief systems outright. For some, other elements come into the picture, such as discontent with churchianity, woundedness, etc. Read HERE for the progression of how it goes for many who choose Torah pursuance.

    Keep the Law to be saved? Keep the Law to stay saved? Keep the Law to prove you're saved? Keep the Law to be blessed? Keep the Law to not be cursed? You can only please God by keeping His Law as given to Moses? The only way to know and to stay in the will of God is to keep the Law? You'll be the least in the kingdom if you don't keep Mosaic Covenant Law? Yep, you will find a number of or all of those beliefs and more in the HRM.

    I know you asked for a simple list of differences, and I'm sorry I could not do that for you. The key is actually simpler than a list. You just need to stay in the Word and become well grounded about who you are in Christ. Even if you were to just go through the New Testament and read through, paying special attention to every time the text says, "In Christ", "Through Christ", "Because of Christ", "In Him", etc. and keep in mind the HRM teachings you have under your belt thus far, you might find some confusion clearing up and begin to see the difference in focus between what you're seeing plainly written in the Bible and what you hear from HRM sources.

    You may also begin to see why one of the tenets in the HRM is that Yeshua is the Living Torah. That is a key false teaching in the HRM designed to take your focus off of the Living Christ Who did the work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the sending of His promised Holy Spirit and to put your focus on Torah instead. It is the attempt to replace the Living Christ with the written Law. Did Torah do all the things that Christ did? No! Then how can Yeshua be the Living Torah? Torah is a partial revelation of God's Word. Yeshua/Jesus is the FULL and LIVING expression of God Who bled and died and rose again to fulfill the promises of God.

    I'm sorry this is so long. There were several points I thought important to make. It sounds like as you're reading things like Acts 15 and Galatians for what they plainly say, you're seeing some disconnects in what you're learning from HRM sources. Those I know (and I know quite a few now) who have come out of the HRM, tell me that that's exactly how it happened for them: When they just sat down with the Word and read what it says to the Body of Christ, it was clear to them that they truly were not under Law but under Grace. There are some testimonies from some former HRMers HERE, as well a more information about the HRM if you want to take a look.

    When one's focus remains on the finished work of Christ and who we are in Christ, so many things become so clear. May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

    Blessings,
    -JGIG
    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com





    Quote Originally Posted by LabbyLove View Post
    I'm trying really hard to understand this Hebrew Roots information that I get in bits and pieces. You know I struggle with the Sabbath and what to do with that law...

    Anyway, if you follow HRM or are VERY familiar with its teachings, then would you please tell me what the DIFFERENCES are between people who follow some laws some as dietary, circumcism, sabbath, passover observances, etc., (which I think are HRM) and those that were named Judaizers in Paul's day.

    Did Judaizers believe that you had to follow the laws in order to be saved, or once you were saved by Jesus Christ that you had to follow the laws? Did they equate following the laws with gaining salvation, or were they okay with people becoming Christians, but felt they needed to follow Jewish laws to be in line with God's will? What if they didn't follow the laws, did they feel salvation would be lost?

    It seems the Gentile Christians were told after the Council at Jersusalem that they only needed to follow the four rules set before them by the apostles, thus freeing them from following all of the mosaic law. Trying also to understand what Paul is saying in Galatians about all of this.

    My impression is that HRM differs from the original Judaizers in that they don't feel it's necessary, but helpful or loving to follow some of the law? Do I have that right?


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LabbyLove View Post
    So you are saying one DIFFERENCE is that the Judaizers were forcing them to follow the added laws from the Talmud, not Torah, whereas HRM does not? Trying to contrast the two...
    LabbyLove,

    You were correct in your previous post when you referred to Acts 15 as one of the main sections of Scripture dealing with the "Judaizers". If it is true that "the Judaizers were forcing them to follow the added laws from the Talmud" then where is there any reference to these added laws in Acts 15? In all of Acts 15 there is not one word about any added laws or "commandments of men" nor is there even a hint that either of these ideas is being discussed.

    In Acts 15 there were two and only two questions being discussed and decided - whether or not Gentiles were required to be circumcised and whether or not they were required to keep "the Law of Moses":

    Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

    So when Peter in verse 10 talks about "a yoke" "that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear" how can this be referring to added laws that are not mentioned even once in the whole chapter? This "yoke" then can only be referring to circumcision or the whole Law of Moses. Circumcision, by itself, has never been considered a yoke. The Jews consider circumcision a right and a privilege and is routinely performed even to this day.

    When we get to the Apostles answer in their letter in verses 23-29 there can be no question that their response is a direct answer to the two questions raised in verse 5 and has nothing to do with any "added laws" or "commandments of men". The four items mentioned in the letter were common practices among the Gentiles and would have been repugnant to the Jewish Christians and so they were mentioned so there could be fellowship between the Jewish and Gentile Christians in Antioch.

    Also, there is nothing in the response, either stated or implied, that the four items mentioned were only a preliminary requirement and that they would later be required to keep the whole Law. Nor was this response somehow to be construed to be a complete moral code because that was never the question that was being answered.

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