Definition of Zionism

[Emily]

A Definition of Zionism

Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

I am starting this thread not to debate if this is right or wrong but to establish clear definitions what many of us who consider ourselves Zionists believe.

In my disagreement with someone in a thread here, I have been called a liar for stating that I view someone as anti-Israel because they are an anti-Zionist.

Hopefully, this thread, without naming names, will clarify my view.

When someone claims that the church is 'Spiritual Israel' and claims that we are grafted into Israel, I would like to clarify how many others in the body of Christ view things. When I see someone, who I believe, is trying to usurp the promises to Israel proper (meaning promises made specifically to them and not intended to the whole world), I see them as anti-Israel as we know her today. I believe, there are promises to the whole world as made through Abraham and then there are promises made to Israel in their relationship with Him.

Agree, or disagree, while I will respect other's view points in how they see things, I also ask that you respect how we see things. I think this is important to explain so we are not called 'liars' for making statements that we see another as anti-Israel.

1. The promises of the Messiah was originally given to Adam and Eve. They were the mother and father of ALL of creation.

2. Then the promise was given to Abraham who was Chaldean. To him, he was told that ALL nations would be blessed through his seed (not seeds, but SEED who is Jesus).

3. Jacob was renamed Israel because he fought with God. That was prophetic because Israel would be the people whom God would show the world that He Is Real and as Israel struggled with God, the world would see how God treats those who love Him and how He treats those who rebel against Him. But this relationship is temporal and a people carved out as the people He would work through. Not because they were special at all but because they were typical of all mankind. We all, every human being, goes through a similar struggle with God until they come to a saving faith and submit or die in rebellion and separated from God and His grace for eternity.

4. We believe that we are grafted into the root who is Jesus, not Israel.

5. We believe that the church is a unique group of people made up of people from ALL NATIONS, saved by grace not works, and are members of the body of Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the church is complete, the age of grace ends and the way things were as in the OT will resume and people will still be saved but they will not be indwelt and they will be able to lose their salvation by their choices, as in taking the mark of the beast. This is why many of us see the church is removed before the trib as this state of grace is not mentioned in Rev and also because it is stated that they can lose their salvation where scripture prior to Rev make it clear that we are sealed and it is incorruptible.

6. We believe that the book of Revelation is all about God returning His attention to the nation of Israel to complete His promises to them. There will be gentiles saved too but for the most part, this is about the final struggle with Jacob and God's promises to him and his direct heirs.

7. We believe that we do not REPLACE Israel nor are we Spiritual Israel. We don't reach back into the OT for the promises given to Israel and apply them to us. The only promise we embrace is the one given to Adam and Eve and Abraham. God does give foreshadowing and prophecy about the Messiah to Israel and we can know Jesus is Him by reflecting back to those things, and many of His teachings to Israel are embraced as wisdom to all Men, but that is where many of us see the connection with Israel and the church end.

This is best seen in the special blessings Israel was promised for tithing and they receive temporal rewards for their obedience. The church is asked to give everything and they will receive their rewards in heaven and to store their treasures in heaven. Neither Jesus nor the apostles lived lives as promised to Israel for obedience. They all lived in poverty and almost all died martyrs. Christian means to follow Christ's teachings. Christ's teachings, for us, begins with His life, death and resurrection and best seen through the teachings of Paul to the gentiles.

Israel is an active witness to the world about the reality of God. There have been many miracles where people clearly say that the God of Israel is a mighty God and have caused their enemies to envy them or take up war against them. Israel is always in struggle and always protected by God, supernaturally. For a tiny land like Israel to still exist while their enemies surround them is amazing and proof of God's love for her.

Again, this is simply to present what many of us believe.

If you disagree, I understand that and accept it and I am not presenting this to start a debate about where you think I am wrong.

It is simply an explanation to clarify what I mean when I see those who claim the church is 'Spiritual Israel' that I see them to be anti-Israel as we know her today.

We believe, the church is not nor ever will be Israel, spiritually or otherwise. The church is unique as members of the body of Christ and we are neither Jew nor Greek or labeled any nationality. We are BORN AGAIN Children of the LAST ADAM and a NEW CREATION.

We believe we are a new creation. We are citizens of heaven, not of this world. We are sojourners here until we are taken home. Our lives are to be lived as the salt and light to the world of His love and grace. A testimony of His gift that is available to all.

That testimony is to be made by living our lives where His love and compassion and mercy lead us and while we may fail, the work is His and He completes where we fail.

Each member of the body of Christ has the opportunity to participate in His work and if we do, we will receive rewards but if someone does not, they are not punished, (there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus) they just do not receive rewards.

So please, just understand that when we look at Israel, we look at the people who have had the honor of God working through them for the benefit of the whole world. But we do not need to become a part of a people who have so often broken God's heart and God has promises to keep with them, but we are born again a new creation and God continues to keep his promises to Jacob and his heirs but many of us who view the church as separate do not see those promises as relating to us.

I hope this explanation clarifies a few things and again, I am not asking anyone to accept, agree, or debate, just understand more clearly where we stand and offer us respect to believe as we do as we respect where you stand.

PLEASE, do not launch into attacking any of these points. If you have sincere questions, in love, I will be happy to answer them but if it is to incite divisiveness or to argue why you think we are wrong, then I ask you to please not post.

[MagicMan]

I am a Zionist in the Matthew 24 "Fig Tree" sense but I also appreciate that the dark side (the Rothschild Illuminati) was instrumental, at least on the surface, in bringing today's Israel back into existence. (A classic example that God uses even Evil to fulfill His Purposes)

I am confident, in the extreme, that God knows exactly what he is doing with Israel and that no matter who may be in control or power politically He's still the author of all and that there is no getting around that.

I think all those that yammer and spew about Evil Zionists are in effect slapping My God in the Face.

Yes...it's that serious.

Either God knows what He's doing or He doesn't....and it matters not what men may or may not do....Period.

[RWAL]

I am a Zionist in the Matthew 24 "Fig Tree" sense but I also appreciate that the dark side (the Rothschild Illuminati) was instrumental, at least on the surface, in bringing today's Israel back into existence. (A classic example that God uses even Evil to fulfill His Purposes)

I am confident, in the extreme, that God knows exactly what he is doing with Israel and that no matter who may be in control or power politically He's still the author of all and that there is no getting around that.

I think all those that yammer and spew about Evil Zionists are in effect slapping My God in the Face.

Yes...it's that serious.

Either God knows what He's doing or He doesn't....and it matters not what men may or may not do....Period.

The nation of Judah is called a fig tree but........

There are good figs and bad figs. Must be two fig trees because a good tree cannot put forth bad fruit.
Matthew 21:19 Jesus curses fig tree = no fruit forever.
Matthew 24:32 Fig tree puts forth leaves. No mention of fruit is there?

Paul defines who is a Jew.
Romans 2:28, 29,
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Jeremiah 24,
1 After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths from Jerusalem and had brought them to Babylon, the Lord showed me: behold, two baskets of figs set before the temple of the Lord! 2 One basket had very good figs, like first-ripe figs; and the other basket had very bad figs, which could not be eaten due to rottenness.

Christ is the root of the good fig tree. The good fig branches never were broken off. Gentile believers were grafted in.

I would define zionism as a movement attempting to produce good fruit apart from the root which is Christ.

Its been 62 years since the bad fig tree put forth leaves.
Where is the fruit? Christian zionists are the ones dishonoring Christ by looking toward a bad tree to produce good fruit.

My understanding is that Israel is the olive tree (Jer 11:16) and since the nation of Israel was cut off they also must be grafted into the good fig tree just as the gentiles are in Romans 11:16-18.

When Judah and Israel split the prophecies regarding them also split. If one studies the prophecies regarding these two nations it is very plain that they go in two very different directions and have two completely different purposes. It becomes quite apparent that the two sticks
of Judah and Israel are only joined back together in Christ and not before.

[Emily]

The nation of Judah is called a fig tree but........

There are good figs and bad figs. Must be two fig trees because a good tree cannot put forth bad fruit.
Matthew 21:19 Jesus curses fig tree = no fruit forever.
Matthew 24:32 Fig tree puts forth leaves. No mention of fruit is there?

Paul defines who is a Jew.
Romans 2:28, 29,
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Jeremiah 24,
1 After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths from Jerusalem and had brought them to Babylon, the Lord showed me: behold, two baskets of figs set before the temple of the Lord! 2 One basket had very good figs, like first-ripe figs; and the other basket had very bad figs, which could not be eaten due to rottenness.

Christ is the root of the good fig tree. The good fig branches never were broken off. Gentile believers were grafted in.

I would define zionism as a movement attempting to produce good fruit apart from the root which is Christ.

Its been 62 years since the bad fig tree put forth leaves.
Where is the fruit? Christian zionists are the ones dishonoring Christ by looking toward a bad tree to produce good fruit.

My understanding is that Israel is the olive tree (Jer 11:16) and since the nation of Israel was cut off they also must be grafted into the good fig tree just as the gentiles are in Romans 11:16-18.

When Judah and Israel split the prophecies regarding them also split. If one studies the prophecies regarding these two nations it is very plain that they go in two very different directions and have two completely different purposes. It becomes quite apparent that the two sticks
of Judah and Israel are only joined back together in Christ and not before.

Did you have questions regarding my position regarding Zionism?

If you read the OP, I stated that this was not to be a debate as you are attempting to make.

This thread is about those of us who are Zionist and explaining how we define it, not how others define it. That, unfortunately, has been expounded a great deal here at the Tree and we have tried to define our position in various different venues here.

This thread is to try to define it in total, not to defend it yet again.

We do not believe that gentiles become or replace Israel in ANY WAY.

We believe that God loves Israel, and will return to her when the age of grace is complete. In the meantime, He protects that tiny country and is drawing her citizens home as prophesied.

We see the scripture in Revelation where it is stated that there are those who claim to be Jews but are of the Synagogue of Satan as a warning against those who try to usurp the relationship between Israel and God.

Did you have any questions about where we stand? Please do not try to convince us that you are right and we are wrong.

I am only asking for you to step back and try to understand our position and respect that we have that right to it as we respect your right to have yours even if we disagree with it.

[CMAR]

We see the scripture in Revelation where it is stated that there are those who claim to be Jews but are of the Synagogue of Satan as a warning against those who try to usurp the relationship between Israel and God.

8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you

I'm not seeing the ties to Israel you mention in these passages.

[Emily]

I'm not seeing the ties to Israel you mention in these passages.

Let me try this one more time.

I am presenting this to explain what Zionism is to those of us who are called Zionists.

We know all the scriptures that are used to try to convince that the church either replaces it or that gentiles think they become a member of Israel.

I am not going to try to defend our position against your chosen scriptures.

We do that all the time and you all don't listen. This thread is simply to explain our position.

ETA: As for those two passages, for you to claim you do not see a tie to those who claim they become a part of Israel or replace Israel means that you are setting up your question to a further agenda.

[CMAR]

We see the scripture in Revelation where it is stated that there are those who claim to be Jews but are of the Synagogue of Satan as a warning against those who try to usurp the relationship between Israel and God.

ETA: As for those two passages, for you to claim you do not see a tie to those who claim they become a part of Israel or replace Israel means that you are setting up your question to a further agenda.

Emily you brought in the scripture from Revelation, and NEVER before have I heard it interpretted the way you did (which I put in bold).


I'm not "debating zionism" with you Emily, I am simply questioning your use of the scripture from Revelation.

Another thing, you should start a thread with a topic that obviously holds contentious viewpoints and then say you don't want to debate it.

Maybe request the thread be locked right after you post it?

[Emily]

Emily you brought in the scripture from Revelation, and NEVER before have I heard it interpretted the way you did (which I put in bold).


I'm not "debating zionism" with you Emily, I am simply questioning your use of the scripture from Revelation.

Another thing, you should start a thread with a topic that obviously holds contentious viewpoints and then say you don't want to debate it.

Maybe request the thread be locked right after you post it?

The fact that you have NEVER heard that scripture described that way is the very reason I started this thread.

To explain and define the position of those who are called Zionists.

If you want to discuss our position, that is fine. But that is not what you did. You are trying to go back to what is debated here time and time again and that is to dismiss our position and just go off into your definition and defending your position with your scripture and sweeping what I am trying to describe, define, and explain as if it is invalid at face value.

Is it such an unreasonable request that I make? Are you really that unbridled that you cannot respect our position and stand back and consider it, respectfully?

[Emily]

Emily you brought in the scripture from Revelation, and NEVER before have I heard it interpretted the way you did (which I put in bold).


I'm not "debating zionism" with you Emily, I am simply questioning your use of the scripture from Revelation.

Questioning my use of that scripture? It is difficult for those of us who see it as we do to understand how can you claim that scripture does not refer to those who are claiming to be Israel (spiritual or otherwise) does not have anything to do with Israel?

I am confused at your question.

The scripture, to us, in Revelation is clear.

[CMAR]

I knew there was a reason I only stick to the prayer requests in the chapel.

Thanks EM.