Amen .....Originally Posted by night driver
Land Owner
Amen .....
Senator
Assuming you refer to Ephesians chapter 2, where does Torah divide the blood line of Israel from gentiles? Can you show me?
But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.
I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.
(Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)
Judge
Where I'm coming from, ANY division is irrelevant.
Christ offers His Salvation to ALL, regardless of parentage, bloodline or pre-acceptance traditions.
Upon acceptance, one takes off ALL of one's earlier life/restrictions/laws/etc and puts on Christ's Grace and a new life. The Old gets evicted and the New is of the Spirit.
"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain"
[Frank Herbert...Bene Gesserit Fear Littany}
night driver's I-garage:
http://bluemudpatriot.wordpress.com/
Land Owner
Amen !
Judge
We're not THAT far apart. It's all one team anyway...
Land Owner
Kinda Sorta
Senator
I agree. Salvation has never ever been through the keeping of anything...not even through the rcc. The works through no type of human priesthood can justify a person before God. Only through faith like Abraham, and through that faith the book of James chapter 2 shows that Abraham was in that fashion justified by his works. So, not a works through Moses and sacrifices of animals, but works that are an out pouring of faith (which makes one righteous) and love towards God justify men.
But what you suggested was that something in Ephesians suggested legalism...and I agree with that too. But if you are talking about chapter 2 of Ephesians, the legalism is a dividing wall between Jew and gentile. So I merely asked the question "Where does Torah make a seperation between a bloodline and the gentiles?". The answer is that it doesn't. Torah has always made provision for the assimilation of gentiles, who through faith attach themselves to Israel. That dividing wall is man made, like the one in the temple which differentiated the court of the gentiles from the court of the jews(it was never in the original blueprint)...the dividing wall, it was erected by an of the traditions of men, not Torah. So it was the law under human administration that caused the problem.
So, the "jew" and gentile alike can only be saved through faith. And as the book of Romans declares,through that faith we then do not nullify the law, in fact, we then establish the law. Not a law of dead works, but a law of faith. For, it is not those who hear the law who are justified before God, but it is those who do the law who are justified. The law commands us to come to Him with rended hearts in faith and love.....then comes the rest.
So depending on which side of Moses we want to stand on, Torah is either a blessing or a curse. If we fully obey it and first and foremost "love YHVH your Elohim with all your heart......", as Torah commands, then Torah is a delight, as all of Psalm 119 testifies. But if not, then Moses becomes our administrator instead of Yeshua, and Moses preaches the gospel to us and Torah points out our sin and a human priesthood must demonstrate sacrifices as a shadow of what could be if only we rend our hearts toward God. And if we don't rend our hearts, it becomes a curse that condemns us and not a blessing.
Back in Romans again, Paul says that with his mind he loves Torah, but sees another law at work in his members...the law of sin and death. And he says that the law...Torah...is spiritual, but he is not. Even Paul, who is accused of preaching against Torah does not preach against it, he preaches against the law of sin and death....against the idea of salvation being obtained through Moses' administration of Torah and ritualizing our obedience or observing something in order to obtain unto salvation, virtue obtained through deeds and a law that points out his sin...it doesn't fly.
So there is only one priest who can administer Torah to your heart and make it a blessing and not a curse....Yeshua. Any pope or priesthood that in the line or tradition of Moses who makes a claim to that is antichrist, the synagogue of Satan.
And faithful Moses, although he had a ministry of diminiishing glory preached the gospel to stiff necked Israel and said "be circumcised in the attitude of your hearts." Because YHVH's intent was not a system of beast sacrifice, that came because the people would not hear Torah directly from YHVH. Jeremiah ch 7 states:
"22 For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets.26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.'
Then at the foot of Sinai, YHVH gave Torah to Israel, without reference to sacrifices, but the people cut Him short and said no. They wanted to receive Torah through Moses and not straight from YHVH. So instead of getting a sacrifce that takes away their sin (messiah), they received Torah with a substitute priesthood and a substitute set of sacrifices....and Torah written on stone rather than on fleshy hearts.
So which side of Moses do you want to stand on? Do you want a human priesthood of diminishing glory which wll add to and take away from God's word(a sin worthy of death)...who will fill your life and heart with the traditions of men? Or do you want Torah written on your heart with the very finger of God and a pure, unleavened worship?
But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.
I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.
(Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)
Land Owner
Where did you get this stuff from ? I mean honestly .... Your really willing to bet your children's soul on this ? Come on man ... And I do mean this in all love .... You need a wake up call .So which side of Moses do you want to stand on? Do you want a human priesthood of diminishing glory which wll add to and take away from God's word(a sin worthy of death)...who will fill your life and heart with the traditions of men? Or do you want Torah written on your heart with the very finger of God and a pure, unleavened worship?
The very thing you are selling here is a "Tradition of Man" YOU ... It is YOUR Tradition ....
Senator
It comes from the plain context of scripture when one takes into account the whole message.
Rhetoric Fishman..is that all you got? Even the protestants around here can do better than that.
So you're willing to gamble your soul in the hands of clergy?....who do attrocious things? Now that's the definition of insanity.
Just look at Paul who you lean on for assurance that your man made practices and liturgies are of God. Here's what he says about Torah.
Acts 24:14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which the call a sect I do serve the god of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the law, and that is written in the prophet.
Acts 25:8 "I have commited no offonse either against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar"
But why did they want to kill him? Because he took the message of Torah and messiah to the gentiles. Acts 22:21-22
Read Romans 7:9- ch 8:4 and tell me if Paul thinks the law is done away with.
Then in ch 7:7 Paul says "Is the law sin? may it never be, On the contrary..." Yet, the rcc has made it their official postition in ancient times that observance of the sabbath is seperation from Christ. Traditions of men.
Now here is what Torah says:
Deut 30:19
..."I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving YHVH your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the strength of your days, that you may live in the land which YHVH swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jocob, to give them.
Ex:19:5-6
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be my own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine: and you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation...
Yet of course, we know that they did not keep that covenant and were banished from the land, yet, under a new priesthood, under Melchizadek's order, they would keep the covenant.
So, in Hebrews 10:1-6 states the weakness of the Mosaic system. That the lood of bulls etc cannot take away sin. As such, it was a foreshadowing of the heavenly things which are seen a few verses later in ch 10:16
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHVH: I will put My laws (Torah) upon their heart, and upon their mind I will write them"
Yet, Fishman, your religious system teaches you that Torah is replaced with the authority of the church.
Y'know, it does not matter how accurate their doctrine is or how unchanging it's been (for the sake of the arguement) through the centuries, it is of human construct and adds to and takes away from Tenach, which God tells His people to beware of any one who does or teaches such.
Ezekiel clearly states that Yeshua will shepherd His people himself and there will be no other. These other attempts at placing Peter in the mix is what is convoluted. You don't need anything from peter other than his words written about messiah. If peter has the key to the kingdom and can pass it down, then so does the church in Philadelphia (a long long way from Rome) So of that church Yeshua states the same unalterable things that He does to Peter. You need to abandon Rome and go to Philadelphia.
Peter in scripture was given a ministry...to the Jews. Paul was given a ministry to the gentiles. Peter was headquartered in Jerusalem, contrary to the tradition of men handed down to you. That is what scripture states.
I know you don't believe in sola scriptura, neither do I. But traditions of men cannot measure truth. Yeshua himself stated such in John 5 where He states regarding John the baptists testimony that He does not accept lthe testimony of men. His non-solo scriptura teaching has to do with three very different witnesses than that. Look it up. Yet, your "church" teaches in direct opposition to Yeshua's statement John 5:34 "I recieve not testamony of men" In fact, He even states about Himself that "If I bear witness of myself, my testamony is not true"...there are others. For your church to adhere to the traditions of the church as authoritative along side scripture is in direct opposition to the three witnesses spoken of by Yeshua....ie, Yeshua's works, the Father's witness (see Romans 1), and scripture.
It's clear Fishman, your church nor it's dogma is not what it claims to be.
But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.
I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.
(Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)
Esquire
I sat and read this entire thread, and wanted to comment. Having been a believer for over forty years, and after a journey through denominational and non denominational churches, a stint in Bible college, and somewhere around a decade as a fairly active "out of church Christian", I finally had to admit that what passes for God's church in this nation and much of the world today does not remotely resemble the standard or pattern laid out in the scripture, be it old covenant or new. We have lowered the bar to the point that the bar is now laying on the ground, and we step over it without so much as a glance down at it, or a second thought as to how it got there as we go about "church".
With few exceptions, what we call "church" today, regardless of denomination, has little or nothing in common with God's original intent, whether we look at either inner substance or outward physical workings.
God eventually brought my wife and I to a place where we were willing to lay down the last of the traditions of men that we held so dear, and which He had been chipping away at for quite some time. It was pretty obvious that what we had been taught over many years from a good number of unrelated sources was in effect "another gospel", though we didn't yet think of it as such. We just knew it didn't work - the fruit was bad, both in our lives and the lives of just about everyone we had ever known when observed over the long haul. The concept of a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, washed in the Blood of The Lamb, seemed to be just that - a concept.
To the point, God has taken us back to the Word - all of it, both old covenant and new. As we read and study, laying aside preconceived doctrines, notions, preferences and wishes, the unmistakable message has been a return to Torah, coupled with a powerful encounter with Yeshua, our prophesied Messiah. We are part of no movement, have taken no moniker, and have by no means arrived, but for the first time ever, the entire Bible makes good sense, meshes with itself, and declares the unwavering consistency and holiness of God, Who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Only through His Torah can this be so.
Because we were not strangers to many of the "deeper" things in the Word, our study has gone relatively quickly, and large pieces come together at a time. Hopefully without sounding like a cheerleader, what God is revealing to us meshes near perfectly with the meat of what Wiskey Reb has shared along these lines, both in this thread and others, with remarkable insight and balance.
There is more, brothers and sisters - isn't this what just about every one of us have wondered to ourselves as we have observed the western church being absorbed into the world and it's systems?
+1, bold type mine.
Yep Jazzy, and we as believers are about to go through His refining fire in such a way that we will live this out.
Good post. It's amazing how we have chosen as a race to remain on the side of the system that brings death, preferring our religion to His redemptive Truth and Life.
In a nutshell
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