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Thread: What Would You Do in This Soldier's Shoes?

  1. #1
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    Default What Would You Do in This Soldier's Shoes?

    I belong to two forums....The Tree of Liberty and another forum that is very small. The members from the other forum are trying to get the word out about Clint and the terrible situation he is in.

    Clint Lorance came to the other forum last night and posted about the website where he is asking for his fellow Americans to read his case and decide for themselves if they think he did something so wrong that he must be punished by the US government. http://www.patriotscorner.com/forums...hp?f=1&t=16379

    Clint asks that if you decide it would not be right for the government to punish him now, given the circumstances he was in at the time, that you might consider signing the petition in support of him.

    I have posted Clint's case below.

    Thank you!

    Clint and Mom at his college graduation in 2010. — at University of North Texas.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Defend...25302257641028



    __________________________________________________ _________

    http://www.defendoursoldier.com/

    Defend Our Soldier!



    Army First Lieutenant Clint Lorance volunteered to serve two combat tours; 15 months in Iraq and 7 months in Afghanistan, only to return home to face charges by the very government he swore to support for doing his duty.

    In modern warfare, there is no clearly defined enemy. Long gone are the days where American Soldiers could distinguish their enemy by the uniform they wore. These days, the enemy could be anyone. America expects a lot out of its Soldiers, to fight for years on end with no victory in sight in a country that doesn't even want to help itself.

    Only to sell its own Soldiers out to appease the government of Afghanistan. This is happening, we are fighting it, but we need your help.

    Make a Donation Here


    Sign the Petition Today

    __________________________________________________ ____

    From the website. http://www.defendoursoldier.com/About-the-Case.aspx

    Lavender....I will post Clint's case here to give people a chance to read about it.

    About 1LT Clint Lorance's Case

    In July 2012, while serving as a Rifle Platoon leader in a remote sector of Kandahar Province Afghanistan, 1LT Lorance's platoon embarked on what was seemingly a normal combat patrol. 1LT Lorance's patrol, consisting of 16 US Infantrymen, 5 Afghan National Army Soldiers, and 1 US Interpreter, left their Strong Point early in the morning on 02 July 12 to a neighboring village. The platoon knew this village all too well, as only days before, one of their brothers, a US Soldier, had been shot in the neck in this very village.

    Having constant contact with overhead US Army helicopters, it would soon become apparent to 1LT Lorance that the platoon was headed into enemy held territory. Army pilots warned 1LT Lorance over the radio of enemy presence to the North, East and West of the Platoon's position on the ground. LT Lorance confirmed with the pilots a good description of the enemy, and pilots continued to track and provide overhead surveillance for LT Lorance's Infantry platoon who was traveling on foot in the mine-riddled Afghan terrain. The Soldiers were operating in a terrain that the Army had deemed too dangerous to drive vehicles due to the expensive damage to vehicles as a result of mine explosions. In an effort to preserve their vehicles, the Infantrymen walked everywhere on foot, behind hand-held mine-detectors.

    As the patrol approached the village, the Afghan National Army Soldiers who were "on point" leading 1LT Lorance's formation raised their weapons and poised to open fire upon 2 individuals who were sitting on a motorcycle at a distance observing the patrol's movement. The individuals met the exact description as what the Army pilots had told 1LT Lorance moments earlier.

    Several factors played into the decision making process:
    1.The two individuals were sitting idle at a distance observing the US Patrol. In that area of Afghanistan, it is common practice for Taliban fighters to use what the US calls "spotters". This is a tactic the Taliban uses to communicate with one another. Many times the US is able to intercept the radio transmissions and confirm these are Taliban.

    2.Intelligence reports for the area identified any personnel owning or operating a motorcycle was Taliban, as there were no local population living there. The local population had long since moved out of the area because it had been taken over by the Taliban. Essentially, if they were in this area, they were up to no good. The only other non-taliban actors in this area were farmers who commuted from their homes south of the river to farm the land that had been left abandoned.

    3.July 1, 2012 was the official start of "Afghan in the Lead". The US Generals and chain of command did not specifically delineate what this meant. When asking his Company Commander before taking command of his platoon in late June, LT Lorance sought clarification as to what exactly "Afghan in the Lead" meant. The Company Commander replied with "if the Afghans don't want to patrol, we don't patrol". This guidance was vague. US Generals should have very clearly specified the modification, if any, to the current rules of engagement. Many platoons simply stopped patrolling, which set the stage for the Taliban to retake the territory. When the US is absent, there is a power vacuum. LT Lorance knew that in order to protect his men, his platoon must continue to patrol often. Many US officers' response was just to let the Afghan Soldierss do what they want, after all, it is their country. Lorance was not of this belief. Lorance believes that if any unit or joint-patrol that a US participates in must abide by US laws. Essentially, Lorance was not comfortable letting the poorly trained Afghan Soldiers call the shots.

    Having only seconds to react, 1LT Lorance made the decision to protect his troops while preserving local human life and preventing possible collateral damage by ordering the Afghan Army soldiers to stand down. The poorly trained Afghan Soldiers are trigger-happy and are at best very poor marksmen. In 1LT Lorance's decision making process, it was either let the Afghan Soldiers open up a barrage of gunfire and rocket fire onto the two individuals and potentially create unacceptable levels of collateral damage, or to engage the target with better trained US marksmen.

    With seconds to act, 1LT Lorance decided that collateral damage was unacceptable . 1LT Lorance could not see what was behind a nearby building, and was afraid there were women and children that may be hit by a barrage of Afghan Army gunfire. 1LT Lorance ordered all of his men to hold their fire-to include the Afghan Army Soldiers, 1LT Lorance then ordered his Soldier who was standing guard in an overwatch position from the road on a US Gun Truck to fire two long-range precision shots, eliminating the threat.

    The patrol remained under enemy surveillance as the Soldiers moved through the village. US Intelligence intercepted enemy radio signals talking about the position of the patrol and planning an ambush. Moments later, Lorance's men engaged and killed two confirmed Taliban fighters who were planning the ambush. Simultaneously, Lorance's men in a separate location intercepted a Taliban fighter who was attempting to flee the village on a motorcycle. Another suspected Taliban fighter was injured in the engagement was intercepted by the Afghan Army Soldiers. This man was attempting to flee the village and had been shot in the army by Lorance's men. 1LT Lorance ordered his Combat Medic to immediately stabilize the man and bring the man back to base with the patrol for further medical treatment and remain on Lorance's base pending the investigation.

    Upon return to base, Lorance ordered both of the captured men be tested for gunshot residue on their hands. Both men tested positive, confirming Lorance's suspicions that the men had fired weapons recently. Lorance also ordered the men entered biometrically into the platoon's computer to check for past criminal history. Then men both gave a "John Doe" name when asked, negating the computer check.

    1LT Lorance then ordered that both men be physically separated, put into a shaded area, and be given food and water. Both men refused food, but drank water. When the Afghan Police arrived and asked Lorance for permission to interrogate the prisoners, Lorance denied the Police access to the prisoners and declared them under US custody, as such, they would be treated in accordance with US Army laws for treatment of prisoners. These laws mandate that the US personnel must protect anyone in their custody from interrogation or unjust treatment. 1LT Lorance instructed his men to guard the prisoners and not talk to them. 2-3 hours later, the prisoners were transported to the Detainee processing facility at the Brigade Headquarters.

    Even though both men tested positive for gunshot residue and were acting suspiciously and acted exactly as all other Taliban do in the area, Lorance's higher HQ assumed they were innocent due to political reasons. The two men Lorance's platoon killed early on in the patrol turned out to not be confirmed enemy fighters. The Army assumed Lorance guilty of random acts of murder, fired him from being a platoon leader, took his weapon away--in a combat zone-- and moved him to headquarters to assume administrative duties while awaiting the investigation

    The members of Lorance's platoon have since made efforts to protect themselves by testifying against Lorance. 1LT Lorance is the only person in this incident to face any charges.

    Decide for yourself. We send our Soldiers to fight a war where civilians and enemy look alike. They are walking through fields of land mines designed specifically not to kill but to maim and mutilate. How is the US Government going to turn around and accuse these brave soldiers of murder. What would you do in this situation?
    .
    .
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    .

    There are about 12,000,000 arrests every year! Out of those millions of arrests made every year in the volatile world the police
    work, there are about 400 cops charged with homicide. And even some of those 400 are found to be justified.

  2. #2
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    How am I supposed to judge based on just this information? It's too sparse.

    If I had to judge at all, I would ask the soldier this:

    You swore an oath to protect the Constitution. What were you doing as part of an occupation force in a foreign country and shooting foreign men? Were they a threat to the Constitution?

  3. #3
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    It's good basic information to search further if you are interested in all the reprehensible things this administration has done to our military and veterans.

    Me? Viet Nam Veteran and I don't like to be called a 'domestic terrorist' by the Head of the DHS. My point is obvious contempt for those who protect and serve our country.

    I wouldn't discount anything that has happened and will happen so We The People need to take a stand.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miradus View Post
    How am I supposed to judge based on just this information? It's too sparse.

    If I had to judge at all, I would ask the soldier this:

    You swore an oath to protect the Constitution. What were you doing as part of an occupation force in a foreign country and shooting foreign men? Were they a threat to the Constitution?
    Miradus,
    Glad everything in your life is that cut and dry. I have deployed as both soldier and contractor. Nothing in Afghaniland is simple. The .gov sends soldiers over then ties their hands with the silliest of ROE. Basically get blown up or shot then you can shoot back.
    I am currently in Tarin Kowt afghaniland. I arrived Feb 1 2012, since my arrival I have been to 36 memorial services. Some soldiers were known to me and some not. Of the 36, 30 of them were killed by the very afghani soldiers and police they were training. What is worse than that you may ask??? The guns used to kill coalition forces had PROPERTY OF US GOVT stamped on the side. We are here to train, mentor, and fight as necessary.
    Now if this LT made a call based on the information available then the US should stand behind him regardless. Unfortunately during my 4 army deployments and now the contractor deployment I have witnessed many a career and more importantly lives destroyed because the F'd up army and .gov wants to be politically correct regardless the cost.
    Next time you want to ask a STUPID question think about it first and if you still want to ask it then folks who are and have been here will tell you once again you are foolish.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACKF View Post
    Miradus,
    Glad everything in your life is that cut and dry. I have deployed as both soldier and contractor. Nothing in Afghaniland is simple. The .gov sends soldiers over then ties their hands with the silliest of ROE. Basically get blown up or shot then you can shoot back.
    I am currently in Tarin Kowt afghaniland. I arrived Feb 1 2012, since my arrival I have been to 36 memorial services. Some soldiers were known to me and some not. Of the 36, 30 of them were killed by the very afghani soldiers and police they were training. What is worse than that you may ask??? The guns used to kill coalition forces had PROPERTY OF US GOVT stamped on the side. We are here to train, mentor, and fight as necessary.
    Now if this LT made a call based on the information available then the US should stand behind him regardless. Unfortunately during my 4 army deployments and now the contractor deployment I have witnessed many a career and more importantly lives destroyed because the F'd up army and .gov wants to be politically correct regardless the cost.
    Next time you want to ask a STUPID question think about it first and if you still want to ask it then folks who are and have been here will tell you once again you are foolish.

    This is essentally Viet Nam over again... Don't shoot until you are shot at.
    Well I only need one shot, so what's the point?

    Now the 1st Iraqi war I didn't have a problem with to much, A general was in charge and he had clearly defined goals to achieve and then he came home...

    Everything since has been Viet Nam Redux...

    I have a Neice who served in Afganistan and a nephew over there now...

    I blame no one for going, or joining the service, because if they survive, they have a leg up in life... My Neice is getting her College decree's now.

    BUT, they need to know, that fighting a Politicians war, is a whole other thing than fighting a General's war...

    And that should be elective with the soldier...

  6. #6
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    we had a young man ask us the other day what our opinions were on him joining the service as he knows Dh is a former gungho Marine.
    we both said no, don't do it and were a bit torn about our new opinions.

    Our grandson wanted to be a Marine like his Grandpa, we strongly discouraged him also, even though in years past that would have made us very proud.

    I respect our military men and women and think in their hearts they believe they are serving their country, but I no longer hold that belief and wouldn't want anyone I know to have to serve while a marxist is their commander in chief.

    what struck me in the article is that the vehicles were considered too valuable to allow in the mine fields but our sons and daughters aren't.

    those soldiers are supposedly there to fight a war and stuff happens, hopefully to the other side.
    prayers said for this young man who got caught up in our current politically correct way of fighting a war.

  7. #7
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    Thank you SO much for your input!

    Here is more about Clint.

    On Tuesday, 15 JAN 13, Clint was charged.

    About Lieutenant Clint Lorance



    Clint Allen Lorance was born on December 13, 1984 to welder Tracy Allen Lorance and homemaker Anna Monroe Lorance in Hobart, Oklahoma. Clint has 2 older sisters, homemaker Deanna Lorance Malone (35) and avid Pentecostal missionary/minister Jeni Lorance Neeley (31). Clint's younger brother, Cody (26), followed in his father's footsteps and is a recently married welder and a new father of a baby girl.

    Clint has always been considered a 'twin" because of his cousin Jamie, who he has always been very close with growing up and are the same age. When Clint went off to the Army, Jamie began to work at the local Sheriff's department as a Corrections Officer where she met her now husband Greg, a Deputy Sheriff.

    During high school, Clint worked 3 jobs simultaneously to try and help cover household expenses as well as prepare for moving out on his own when he was 18. Clint stayed active in the local Future Farmers of America chapter and was fortunate enough to have some steadfast and headstrong mentors; the local VP of the bank, the Ag Ed teacher, and a Police Officer.

    Clint was a Police Explorer throughout High School as well. He began to make the relationships that would shape the onset of his adulthood.

    Overwhelmed by the workload, Clint dropped out of high school in February of 2002 to concentrate on preparing for his independence.

    6 months later, Clint and Jamie, side by side, started classes at the local community college. After one semester, as the country prepared for an impending invasion into Iraq, Clint decided it was time to pitch in and do what he could to help a country preparing to shoulder two wars simultaneously.

    On December 13, 2002, Clint's 18th birthday, he walked into the Army recruiting station in Greenville, Texas and joined the Army as a Military Policeman. On April 15, 2003, Clint shipped off to Basic Training at Fort Leonard Wood, MO where he spent 17 weeks learning how to be an Army MP.

    Upon graduating from Basic Training and AIT, Clint spent a few weeks at home with his family and then shipped off to his first duty assignment in Pusan, South Korea.



    During his assignment in Korea, Clint was very active, earning several accolades from Soldier of the Month to NCO of the Quarter for the 8th MP Brigade. Clint participated in numerous athletic events to include half marathons, Iron Soldier competitions, the 8th Army 10 Miler an the Bataan Memorial Death March in White Sands, NM. Clint was quickly promoted above his peers to Sergeant in just two years of service. He served the community as a Gunner, Driver, Team Leader, Squad Leader, Traffic Accident Investigator and D.A.R.E. School Resource Officer.

    On 10 SEP 05, Clint left Korea bound for his next duty station in Fort Richardson, AK, stopping briefly at Fort Benning, GA to earn his Airborne Wings.

    As part of the 4th Airborne Brigade Combat Team In Alaska, Clint deployed for his first deployment to Iraq from September 2006 to November 2007 , initially a 12 month deployment which turned into a 15 month deployment.
    Prior to this deployment, Clint earned his Thai Jump Wings by participating in Operation Cobra Gold. The then 21 year old Sergeant took a squad of 11 MPs to Thailand in Support of the Brigade's mission there.

    Upon returning from Iraq, Clint served as the Brigade Provost Sergeant until he was accepted into the Army ROTC program at the University of North Texas.

    In July 2008, Clint left Alaska bound for Texas to train to become a Commissioned Officer. Clint was active in the American Red Cross Denton Chapter and the Phi Alpha Delta Pre-Law Fraternity while studying and participating in Army ROTC.

    On May 15, 2010, Clint became the first person in his family to graduate with a college degree, and subsequently commissioned as a 2LT in the Infantry of the Army, and proceeded to Fort Benning, GA to attend Infantry Basic Officer Leader's Course.

    Clint was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division's 4th BCT and deployed to Afghanistan in March 2012 to Southern Afghanistan. During his deployment, Clint was the squadron's liason officer to the commander until selected to become a platoon leader.

    On 02 JUL 12 while conducting an Afghan-Led dismounted patrol into an afghan village, the Afghan Army element on the joint patrol began to engage what they thought were Taliban. Worried that the Afghan Soldiers are poor marksmen and would likely cause collateral damage, Clint ordered his gun truck to fire two precision shots at the Taliban. As the platoon moved through the village, the intelligence analysts intercepted several radio transmissions indicating the Taliban could see the Platoon in plain view.

    There was an existential enemy threat in the area. From the beginning of the patrol, US helicopters were radioing LT Lorance's patrol indicating confirmed enemy activity in the area, the description of the enemy matched exactly the enemy combatants the patrol initially engaged with the two precision shots. A few moments Later in the patrol in the same village, Clints Soldiers captured one Afghan on a motorcycle who was later confirmed as a Taliban.

    Later the same day, Clint was put on suspension, his weapon was taken away and he was told nothing for the next 5 days. Finally, he was taken to the Brigade HQ and still at this point hadn't been told what was going on.

    Clint was sent to Kandahar for the next 2 months where he sat idle without a weapon for the remainder of the deployment. Upon returning to Fort Bragg on Sep 23, 2012, Clint was reassigned to administrative duties at the BCT HQ.

    On Tuesday, 15 JAN 13, Clint was charged.

    Prior to this incident, Clint planned on serving his country for 10 more years, retiring from the Army and attending law school. Clint's dream is to work in a district attorney's office as an associate prosecutor.
    .
    .
    .
    .

    There are about 12,000,000 arrests every year! Out of those millions of arrests made every year in the volatile world the police
    work, there are about 400 cops charged with homicide. And even some of those 400 are found to be justified.

  8. #8
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    Lt. Lorance made the bad decision of joining the US Empire's military. He was sent to a place that any individual with a conscience/moral compass should never go.

    Lt. Lorance is guilty of "random acts of murder" as is EVERY other American who KILLS another in a FOREIGN country, in the GWOT.



    He shouldn't have gone Lavender. He is guilty for KILLING FOR EMPIRE.


    Maybe if he had been listening to Adam Kokesh for the last few years, he wouldn't be in this situation.
    Last edited by Matt5-7; 02-03-2013 at 05:37 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miradus View Post
    How am I supposed to judge based on just this information? It's too sparse.

    If I had to judge at all, I would ask the soldier this:

    You swore an oath to protect the Constitution. What were you doing as part of an occupation force in a foreign country and shooting foreign men? Were they a threat to the Constitution?
    Pathetic post...
    Injecting sanity and reality into your thoughts - I AM THE THREAD KILLER! OH - and obvious .gov shill!

    www.70sbig.com
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    www.jimwendler.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt5-7 View Post
    Lt. Lorance made the bad decision of joining the US Empire's military. He was sent to a place that any individual with a conscience/moral compass should never go.
    yep.. and i am of the opinion that is what miradus was alluding to..

    i understand exactly what he meant when he asked,

    You swore an oath to protect the Constitution. What were you doing as part of an occupation force in a foreign country and shooting foreign men? Were they a threat to the Constitution?
    and i dont find it pathetic at all..
    nemophilist.




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