How Wonderful is the Gospel

[Al Swearengen]

Again, a belief in faith PLUS works or, as you say, THEN works, means that Christ's death on the cross is not enough.

You don't get along with James epistle very well, do you?

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

Rom 6:17 But thanks to Elohim that you were servants of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:19 I speak as a man, because of the weakness of your flesh. For even as you did present your members as servants of uncleanness, and of lawlessness resulting in lawlessness, so now present your members as servants of righteousness resulting in set-apartness.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. The one doing righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

[Emily]

You don't get along with James epistle very well, do you?

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves servants for obedience, you are servants of the one whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

Rom 6:17 But thanks to Elohim that you were servants of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

Rom 6:18 And having been set free from sin, you became servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:19 I speak as a man, because of the weakness of your flesh. For even as you did present your members as servants of uncleanness, and of lawlessness resulting in lawlessness, so now present your members as servants of righteousness resulting in set-apartness.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. The one doing righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

I have concluded that you have a difficulty reading smaller text since you ignore so much of it so let me say in larger font:


There has been sufficient evidence to show you that there are scriptures that explain that obedience and what Christ expects of us has nothing to do with Mosaic law and yet you pick out your key scriptures to build your doctrine of men which completely ignores the gift of grace and the law of love.


Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

Romans 2
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

1 Tim 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

[Emily]

Excellent post. Done with a patience that I can't even begin to acheive.

Thank you. And thank you for the note too.

You are doing a great job too. We all have our days when His patience leads our heart and days when we clumsily try to take charge. I have more days of the latter than the former. Thank God the body of Christ works together and to God be the glory.

[Emily]

Back to that again? I thought we put that to bed?

Then what did Jesus accomplish on the cross? What changed?
Is He a speed bump in your religion where you just go back to trying to earn your salvation?

Either our righteousness is through Christ or we are all lost forever.

Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

There are no liars or such in heaven not because people managed to live without failure but because they put their faith in Christ and were born again into a new creation. It is HIS righteousness that the judge sees when we are judged - not our own.

Obedience to Christ is to love others.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

[Emily]

It should be obvious. I agree wholeheartely with the verse you posted. Saved through faith. Got it. Then James picks it up and boldly declares that faith produces works; if it doesn't, it's...DEAD. Martin Luther hated the book of James too.

Yes, Faith produces works. Jesus told us about those works:

Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

If those works and righteousness was through the law then Christ didn't even need to be born and die in our place.

[Al Swearengen]

9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers

Thank you!

So are you a lawbreaker or lawkeeper?

[Al Swearengen]

1 Tim 1
—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

Another great point!

Pro 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my torah.

Joh 7:16 Yahshua answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

[saulteux]

Another great point!

Pro 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my torah.

Joh 7:16 Yahshua answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Faith plus works, yet again.

[Al Swearengen]

Faith plus works, yet again.

Two Scriptures I gave you, and you say 'yet again'. TRUE faith produces works. It's the difference between the mind of Yeshua (Spirit) vs. the old, carnal mind (flesh).

Here is a great summary that illustrates the point beautifully:

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:3 For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, Footnotes: 1Or does not obey.2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.



Carnal vs. Spiritual. Your choice!

[Wiskey Reb]

In light of Al's last post....
Don't I recall someone stating somewhere that the Torah is spiritual, but he (couldn't have been Paul) is carnal? Hmmm.