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Thread: How Wonderful is the Gospel

  1. #11
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    So did anyone listen to the teaching?


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    It's called shadows and Reality, Sojourner =o).

    Sorry, JGIG, you said there was a gospel in the OT and a gospel in the NT. That's two gospels.


    The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, remember? THAT's the reality. There was no "OT gospel." The messiah's work was already done before the world began, and the church in the wilderness -- otherwise known as Israel -- heard the same gospel you did.

    The reality is believers were saved by faith then, and expected to display the evidence of their faith by obeying the Torah. Just like now.


    Elohim is no respecter of persons. Same gospel, same Torah. Same expectations then and now.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
    Sorry, JGIG, you said there was a gospel in the OT and a gospel in the NT. That's two gospels.


    The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, remember? THAT's the reality. There was no "OT gospel." The messiah's work was already done before the world began, and the church in the wilderness -- otherwise known as Israel -- heard the same gospel you did.

    The reality is believers were saved by faith then, and expected to display the evidence of their faith by obeying the Torah. Just like now.


    Elohim is no respecter of persons. Same gospel, same Torah. Same expectations then and now.
    Sojourner, do you believe that there was a point on the timeline that Christ Jesus was actually nailed to the Cross and bled His Blood? Points on the timeline where Christ Jesus actually rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven and sat down in the Heavenly Tabernacle? Is there an actual point on the timeline where the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples? An actual point on the timeline when you placed your faith and trust in Christ and received His righteousness in lieu of your own (Rom. 5)?

    The Law was until the Promised Seed came:
    Galatians 3:15-29
    15Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
    19Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

    21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

    23Before the coming of this faith,j we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

    26So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
    If you want to go back to the Promise, it was in the Abrahamic Covenant where righteousness came by faith, just as it does in the New Covenant where the Gospel is preached in shadow-form. The Blood shed by Christ ratified the New Covenant in Reality that the blood of an animal ratified the Abrahamic Covenant in shadow.

    Same Gospel; two presentations. One in shadow; the other being the Reality in Christ.

    Sojourner, did you listen to the teaching?

    -JGIG


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    He preaches the Gospel 'full preach', with an appropriate emphasis on Old/New Covenant issues.
    -JGIG
    Yeshua does 'full preach' Gospel...and oddly for some, before His sacrifice...

    Mat_4:23 And יהושע went about all Galil, teaching in their congregations, and proclaiming the Good News of the reign, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness among the people.

    Good News from old? Yep!

    Heb 4:2 For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
    Sorry, JGIG, you said there was a gospel in the OT and a gospel in the NT. That's two gospels.

    The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, remember? THAT's the reality.There was no "OT gospel." The messiah's work was already done before the world began, and the church in the wilderness -- otherwise known as Israel -- heard the same gospel you did.
    First, I believe that was a figurative statement as in God's plan was set before the foundation of the world and second, God is outside of time so for Him, time has no relevance, only to us. Before and after are relative terms directly related to the dimension of time.


    The reality is believers were saved by faith then, and expected to display the evidence of their faith by obeying the Torah. Just like now.
    There was no new creation to be born into so they may have been saved by faith but they had to maintain that faith until they died or they were lost. The same will be true in the great tribulation for believers because the body of Christ, the church, those born again into the new creation will no longer be present and that is why the urging to maintain their faith or be lost. There will be only two choices in the tribulation - worship the beast and take the mark of stand firm in the faith and be beheaded. The scripture says the WHOLE world worshipped the beast.

    Elohim is no respecter of persons. Same gospel, same Torah. Same expectations then and now.
    The gospel Jesus fulfilled was given in Genesis 3 to Adam and Eve.

    The parts Israel played were the people preserved through whom the messiah would come and the keeper of the prophesies. They were also the people God worked through to show the world that He Is Real.

    They, unfortunately, were also a very rebellious and prideful people so they needed to be given the written law to keep them from being a lousy witness to the world and God didn't have to keep disciplining them to maintain His glory and deserving of being called the chosen people.

    1 Tim 1 and Romans 1 and 2 makes it more than clear that the law was not given to all mankind and it has is purpose.

    The law was not given to Adam and Eve and if it were, God would have made it clear in scripture.

    There is only one gospel with dispensations according to God's timeline.
    That gospel is not what was given to Israel as they lived and Jesus death and resurrection did not just simply end the temple sacrifices. It was far more than that and until you see that, you are only arguing for a new religion supposedly started by Jesus rather than the miraculous new creation that He made possible as the second and last Adam.
    'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sojourner View Post
    Sorry, JGIG, you said there was a gospel in the OT and a gospel in the NT. That's two gospels.


    The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, remember? THAT's the reality. There was no "OT gospel." The messiah's work was already done before the world began, and the church in the wilderness -- otherwise known as Israel -- heard the same gospel you did.

    The reality is believers were saved by faith then, and expected to display the evidence of their faith by obeying the Torah. Just like now.


    Elohim is no respecter of persons. Same gospel, same Torah. Same expectations then and now.
    Yup.

    Despite all the traditional arguments to the contrary in this present time, it should be an established matter since He tells us in no uncertain terms all through Scripture what we are to expect during His Reign:


    Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the latter days that the mountain of the House of יהוה is established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it.
    Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach1 us His ways1, and let us walk in His paths1, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah1, and the Word1 of יהוה from Yerushalayim." Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously.


    Isa 42:4 "He does not become weak or crushed, until He has established right-ruling in the earth. And the coastlands wait for His Torah."



    Mal 4:4 "Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    The Law was until the Promised Seed came:
    We seem to have a conundrum then. Because the Gospels say that the law was until John. I do not think that you believe that the promised seed was John. So was the law until John, until Jesus, or perhaps you are missing a key word?

    I also wonder which law Paul is talking about?

    Thayers has the definition for nomos as follows:

    1. anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
    a. of any law whatsoever
    1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God
    a. by the observance of which is approved of God
    2. a precept or injunction
    3. the rule of action prescribed by reason
    b. of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
    c. the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, especially the precept concerning love
    d. the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT.


    So which one is it, and can you prove it using proper hermeneutics?

    If you want to go back to the Promise, it was in the Abrahamic Covenant where righteousness came by faith, just as it does in the New Covenant where the Gospel is preached in shadow-form.
    Could you please give us the Biblical description of the New Covenant?
    --Shimri

    But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it." - Luke 11:28

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    I will be listening to the link here shortly. I decided to check CCI's statement of faith first, and I am already troubled.

    "This saving faith should produce an active lifestyle of loving obedience and service to Jesus our Savior."

    I am highly doubtful of this statement. If this were true, you would not have recommended the link.



    "The Church
    The Church of Jesus Christ is the universal, spiritual body of believers from every tribe, tongue, kindred and race of peoples, and is indwelt by God through the Holy Spirit and divinely empowered to fulfill ministry and her Great Commission on earth."

    This is patently false. There is no such thing as 'The Church.'

    "The goal of the Church is to make disciples of all nations and to present the saints complete in Christ.".

    The Great Commission also says to teach the nations all that He commanded, which is strangely absent here, even though they claim loving obedience to Him.

    This is not starting off well, but I will still give it a listen.
    --Shimri

    But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it." - Luke 11:28

  9. #19
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    An easy way for me to remember how wonderful is the Gospel is to remember these things:
    1. Who Jesus is
    2. What He came to do
    3. What that actually accomplished
    4. Who we as believers are in Him
    A solid understanding of the New Covenant is key to understanding all of those points.


    Here's another really good teaching about the New Covenant that covers a lot of ground that we often see debated regarding Law/Grace issues. Here's a link directly to the site, but I'll provide a direct link for download and the study notes that appear at the site.
    Study notes:

    1. Introduction: The Cross – The Dividing Line of Human History.
    2. A Will is in Force Only When Someone Has Died.

      Hebrews 9:16-17


      “In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.”
    Without the Shedding of Blood (Sacrifice), There is No Forgiveness.

    Hebrews 9:18-22

    “This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
    1. A New Covenant
    2. Reason for a New Covenant

      Hebrews 8:7-8a


      “For if there had been nothing wrong with the first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people.”
    The Lord’s declaration of the New Covenant

    Hebrews 8:8b-12


    “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
    1. The Holy Spirit’s Testimony about the New Covenant.

      Hebrews 10:15-18


      “The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put My laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.”
    2. The New Covenant Replaced the Old

      Hebrews 10:8-10


      “First He said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor were You pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). Then He said, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

      Hebrews 7:18-19
      “The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.”

      Hebrews 8:13
      “By calling this covenant “new,” He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”
    3. A New Priesthood
    4. The New Priesthood Replaced the Old

      Hebrews 7:11-12


      “If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come – one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.”
    5. A Superior Priesthood Representing A Superior Covenant.

      Hebrews 8:6


      “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.”

      Hebrews 9:15
      “For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance – now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”
    6. A New Priest
    7. A Perfect Priest Guaranteeing A Better Covenant.

      Hebrews 7:20-22


      “And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.’ ” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.”

      Hebrews 7:26-28
      “Such a High Priest meets our need – one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when He offered Himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.”
    8. An Eternal Priest

      Hebrews 7:23


      “Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office.”

      Hebrews 7:24-25
      “But because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.”
    9. A New Sacrifice
    10. His Sacrifice Took Away Our Sins.

      Hebrews 10:1-4


      The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

      Hebrews 10:5
      “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You prepared for Me.”

      Hebrews 9:23-28
      “It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

      Atonement Covered Sins,Christ Took Away Our Sins.
    11. His Sacrifice Is Final.

      Hebrews 10:11-14


      “Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time He waits for His enemies to be made His footstool, because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are “the holy ones.”
    12. There Is No More Sacrifice For Sins.

      Hebrews 10:17-18


      “Then He adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.”

      Hebrews 6:4-6
      “Therefore . . . It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

      Hebrews 10:26-29
      “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”

      Conclusions Concerning Forgiveness
      Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
      God remembers your sin no more.
      There is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
    13. A New Ministry
    14. We Are Ministers Of A New Covenant

      2 Corinthians 3:6-11


      He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant – not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!”
    15. We Are Ministers Of Reconciliation

      2 Corinthians 5:17-19


      “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.”
    16. Practical Application.
    17. There Is A Sabbath Rest That Remains For Us.

      Hebrews 4:1


      “Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.”

      Hebrews 4:9-11a
      There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest.”
    18. Are you willing to put aside all form of religion and rest in the sufficiency of Christ?
      Old Covenant: Man reaching up to God with self effort to be accepted by God.


      New Covenant: God reaching down to man through Jesus Christ with love and acceptance.





    19. Are You Willing To Enter God’s Rest?

      Hebrews 10:19-23


      “Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, His body, and since we have a great Priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful.”

      Hebrews 4:16
      “Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.”
    20. Conclusion: Believe It and Be Happy.
    Grace and Peace,
    -JGIG


    "If you've lost sight of the Cross in your journey, it's time to alter course."

    www.joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com

  10. #20
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    Okay, but what exactly is the New Covenant? Jeremiah coins the phrase. Hebrews quotes Jeremiah. Ezekiel and Isaiah describe its effect, as does Moses. You say a solid understanding of what the New Covenant is is necessary, yet you have not told us what it is. Do you understand what the New Covenant is?

    If I asked what you feel has changed, we might be able to discuss the list of verses you gave. But your bunch of verses do not answer the question of what the New Covenant is.

    Do you wish to try again?
    --Shimri

    But He said, "Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it." - Luke 11:28

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