How Wonderful is the Gospel

[Emily]

Boldly-Grace STRONG .

Yes, now you are getting it - boldly seeking Him with a humble heart and His grace is sufficient.

Keep going Al - you are getting closer.

[Emily]

Obedience is rejecting grace?

Here I thought Paul said that we uphold the law by our faith, and that we do not keep on transgressing the law so that grace may abound.

Embracing grace is not running back to repeat the same things that I did that caused Him to die.

"

So you are telling us that you are without sin and walk on water?

Nice.... but I kinda think you are fooling yourself and somebody just told you where the rocks are.

[Al Swearengen]

Suggesting something that infers that Messiah did what He was prophesied to do(becoming the passover lamb and the high priest), proven by His actions and His words, is heresy? I said nothing of the sort regarding every time a lamb was sacrificed...I said every time a passover lamb was sacrificed. Disingenuous of you to create that straw man out of my statement, and you and Emily accuse Al of the same...really.

So what would it mean if I were to suggest that when Pilate said "I find no fault in him" that it would also coincide with the high priests inspection of the lamb concluding with the same statement? I suppose that would be beyond heresy?

Really, I don't know the source of that information and am too busy and tired to figure it out for the benefit of someone who hates everything that I am. What I do know is that both these statements have been taught in the lamestream church since I was a wee lad. I've heard them both stated from pulpits of Presbyterians, Free Methodists, Charismatics, Evangelical Free and CMA preachers. But if a Messianic dares to say such a thing....Heresy!! Why are you and Emily trying to create divisiveness out of this which, even if it is untrue and for years has been used in error, still points to the fact that Messiah fully was the prophecied passover lamb. There are plenty of other issues that truely do divide.... I just see your calling this out as silliness....just for the sake of arguement.

My reason for believing that Messiah's statement "it is finished" coincides with a standing tradition that he was quoting the high priest, is that it shows that He not only assumed the role of the Passover lamb in His death, but also that of the high priest. In fact, the hebrew equivalent for "it is Finished" is the word kalah, which has two meanings. It means to complete. But another word, kallah, with the same spelling, just a dagesh (a jot) added in the letter lamed, means....bride....meaning that he also assumed His role as the groom (shich also sheds much light on the foreshadowing of the high priests actions). Much depth of meaning for a heretical idea if I must say.

Really, please explain to me, how do you get around all the Old Testament scripture regarding the blessings of Torah, and the delight of keeping it, or Israel being punished and thrown out of the land for not keeping it ? Will you really state that none of these are true?...or at least not true any longer? Do you really extrapolate on Paul that far?

Also, if what you say is true that just loving your neighbor is all it takes, and loving Messiah means loving your neighbor or following God by doing what you think is good stuff to do...or perhaps you believe that doing or living out nothing at all will suffice so long as you recite some words of repentance (which is doing something), even unbelievers do that sans the belief. So, if you say that unbelievers fail in that they have no relationship with messiah, even though they act the same as christians, how is it that you condemn me, Al, Shimri, et al? All we say is that all the above is true as well as shabat, the feasts, etc, yet doing them before salvation(faith) or otherwise outside of a relationship with Messiah is no good as well. It seems really that you are condemning us because we have the same approach as you, except that we try to keep more of it than you do and don't try to explain away whole segments of scripture with some teachers systematic theology, and you don't like that. You're allowed to proclaim your views as loudly and venomusly as you wish, but others aren't?

Really, you have made it your mission to do all you can to defame people who genuinely love God. Yet you blame them for doing every vile thing that you do as well...like name calling, false accusations, extrapolating on their words....I've been following you long enough on other forums to know that you are no less guilty than those who you accuse. You claim that we are just an internet phenomena bent on proseletyzing christians....that's just a lie. I know of many, including a former moderator on this forum, who are traveling the globe to its most remote places in attempting to spread the good news and offer help to the poor etc. Yet you must maintain lies to enhance your story line. Isn't sticking to what's true evidence enough?

You also state on your website and elsewhere (and give testamonials) that the "hebrew roots" people are harsh and judgemental of one another, venomously watching one anothers every move to find a single violation of law. That in no way describes the synogogue I attend. In fact, we are very tollerant of christians who want to come and attend, study with us and even disagree...we call it midrash. They are welcome to come and pass a dish at our table. Even if they bring in a pork dish, we just don't say anything but don't eat it....it happens. On the other hand, the venom you describe is what I've experienced in every lamestream church I've ever attended. My family and I have been held to every standard of conduct, income generation, reformed doctrine, ism, social status, and biblical law imaginable...and even some things that I hadn't imagined until I experienced it, like having church leaders, and their wives, attempt to come between my own wife and I to cause discontent between us in our household to gain authority over our home and marriage. I'll bet that for every testamonial you can find for any "hebrew roots" accusation (and yes there are valid ones), I will find a thousand for the lamestream church. Our natiion is chuck full of people who have been minced by the churches meat grinder. Your whole approach is a strawman that seeks to paint a different picture of everyone else than it does of your own, when your own are among the worst of the bunch. See, I can lump you all together the same as you do with whoever you perceive to be "us".

Why not just make your case civilly, can the heresy garbage, and act as if others are capable of sincerity and genuineness as well. I think that your theology is, by definition, heresy too, but I try my best not to make a case out of name calling and inflamatory remarks, then accuse others of the same. I stick to condemning institutions, not individuals...imo you would do better to do the same.

Normally I don't even respond to such silliness in posts, like I've stopped doing with others in the thread when they try to raise blood pressures rather that address issues, but I just can't quit giving everyone an opportunity to live out the love they claim to embrace.

Shalom to you.

Thanks Wiskey. Good words.

[Shimri]

So you are telling us that you are without sin and walk on water?

Nice.... but I kinda think you are fooling yourself and somebody just told you where the rocks are.

Straw man.

Address what I said, please.

[Al Swearengen]

So you are telling us that you are without sin and walk on water?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, יהושע Messiah, the righteous One.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.1Footnote: 1See 3:6.

1Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I know Him," and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.2Footnotes: 1Gen. 17:1, Ps. 119:1, Mt. 5:48.2See 3:24.

1Jn 2:6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.

1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.1Footnote: 1See v. 24.

[Al Swearengen]

Keep going Al -

Oh, alright!

Rev 22:14"Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

[Sojourner]

Oh, alright!

Rev 22:14"Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

And the commands in reference here are YHWH's commands. Where do we find such commands? In the TORAH.

[Shimri]

The law has and had its purpose.

Correction. The law has its purposes. One of which is to make known what sin is.

So if the law says to not afflict orphans and widows, I know that to do so would be against the law of God.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

That has no bearing on anything.

We still sin.

Therefore there is still law. Without the law, there is no sin.

We still need forgiveness. We all will fail.

I agree.

The rub is that you are twisting and perverting scriptures and pointing back to Moses

No, we are pointing others to Yeshua. To walk as He walked, in obedience to the Father.

and even worse, the Talmud.

Who here as pointed to the Talmud?

Does it also bother you that Paul pointed to Pagan poets, and said that the Unknown God is actually YHVH? Does it bother you that Paul also referenced the Talmud? Oh, but he did. See Jannes and Jambres, the rock that followed the people in the wilderness, among others. Stephen and Jude referenced Apocryphal books.

Many Christian Scholar has referenced the Talmud. Barnes, Clarke, Gill, Wesley, Calvin, etc. DO you reject their ideas because those same idea are found in Talmud?

You get upset because someone points to Talmud, yet you point others to Christmas, Easter, etc.

It appears that Jesus died for your sins and now you have to obey all the commandments from the Torah as well as those from the Talmud

No one here has said to obey the Talmud.

(which is where you get the definitions of the written law - since it's not exhaustive).

So if it is not exhaustive, where do you think you translators got their definitions from?

What did Paul work so hard at combatting in the days of the early church? Zealous Jews who wanted to keep the institution of the priesthood alive - along with the laws and trappings.

No. He was combating those who said you had to become a Jew (circumcised) to be saved. We are not saved based on our works or our status. We are saved from His grace so that we can walk in His ways.

Take the logical conclusions of your theology and Christ only died for the sins you might have missed.

Okay

It's up to you to perform as best as you can during this life.

Yes. Precisely. You run the race for the high calling. You strive, endure, and overcome.

And to make doubly sure, you throw in all the ceremonies and feasts,

Are they not commands from God?

traditions (man made)

No one said to obey traditions of men.

and trappings of a culture you have no real relationship with other than what a self-appointed rabbi has learned from books and told you to do.

Since we are using logic, is that not what people do when they convert to Christianity as well?

Jesus said to keep my commandments. He listed them out.

And He also said He is one with God. So Gods commands are also His commands.

He re-iterated all 9 of the original 10, leaving out Sabbath worship.

So it has to be reiterated to be applicable? He said nothing about sex with sheep or sleeping with your cousin, so that is all well and good now? He said nothing about homosexuality, so that is okay now?

He also said that if you love one another you will have completely obeyed His commandments.

Homosexuals "love" each other. Have they fulfilled the commandments, or are they in sin?

And again, since we are using logic, you do not even need to do the 9 that He reiterated, since all you have to do is love.

He went beyond the Torah in living the law, he wrote it on your hearts and minds and left no wiggle room for grey areas.

Yep.

You promote using all Hebrew terms for your worship and prayers and language (religious).

I promote both Hebrew and the language one is accustomed to.

You disdain traditional Christianity.

No. I disdain much of what traditional Christianity has incorporated and become.

Many of you deny the trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

Acceptance of the trinity is a precursor to salvation? And yes, some do reject the divinity of Jesus. Here is a shocker: some Christians do as well. I am not saying it is right, but this is not a localized problem.

You are more at home in a Jewish synagogue than in a Christian church.

Funny enough, in my case, it is because there is more love there than in the place that is full of people that are supposed to be showing the love of Christ.

I go to synagogue, (even gone to a Chabad Yeshiva a few times), and can talk openly about my faith in Yeshua, and we can midrash for hours, and leave on friendly terms.

Yet, I go to a Christian church, and I am run out and shunned because I wish to depend on the grace of my King to live like He did, as we are commanded.

It's like Christ is one of your strings on your tzit-tzits instead of your Lord and Savior.

Why do you call Him Lord, Lord, if you do not do what He says?

BTW, the strings on the tzitzit . . . that is funny. Did you get that from Talmud?

The church is not a synagogue. The church is Christ.

Actually, there is no such thing as the "church". The CONGREGATION is the body of Christ.

If the building we meet in is not a synagogue, what was James talking about in his letter?

[Wiskey Reb]

Have to add my two cents.

The rub is that you are twisting and perverting scriptures and pointing back to Moses and even worse, the Talmud. It appears that Jesus died for your sins and now you have to obey all the commandments from the Torah as well as those from the Talmud (which is where you get the definitions of the written law - since it's not exhaustive). What did Paul work so hard at combatting in the days of the early church? Zealous Jews who wanted to keep the institution of the priesthood alive - along with the laws and trappings.

Whaaa??? The Talmud is needed to define the written Torah? Are you suggesting that scripture is ambiguous in regard to defining sin? The Talmud.....where did that come from? If that's the case, how is it that protestants base so much of their doctrine on the writings of the reformers and the puritans?...are they not the protestants Talmud? Their commentary has molded the current definitions of every biblical term. I for one do read some of the reformers as well as Talmud, Zohar, etc. Neither side of the aisle is any less confused with mixing scripture and their own desires. They all have some stuff that is worth reading, but a lot of bones to spit out....so why do you rely so heavily on their teachings?

Take the logical conclusions of your theology and Christ only died for the sins you might have missed. It's up to you to perform as best as you can during this life. And to make doubly sure, you throw in all the ceremonies and feasts, traditions (man made) and trappings of a culture you have no real relationship with other than what a self-appointed rabbi has learned from books and told you to do.

"If we continue to sin after coming to a knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin" What part of scripture did they make up? It seems that the opposite is true. The new testament is not a license to sin. I have had rabbi teach me anything. God calls the feasts His feasts, not a cultural trapping. They reveal much to the person who studies them...perhaps you should look into it before dismissing it as just a cultural thing. What man made traditions do you refer to? Please elaborate.

Jesus said to keep my commandments. He listed them out. He re-iterated all 9 of the original 10, leaving out Sabbath worship. He also said that if you love one another you will have completely obeyed His commandments. He went beyond the Torah in living the law, he wrote it on your hearts and minds and left no wiggle room for grey areas.

Elimination through omition is not sound doctrine. Do you have it written on your heart so that you never find yourself astray from it? So, if you do nothing more than love your neighbor, does that equate to loving God too?...because the nine commandments that you say are reaffirmed are not all in relation to ones neighbor.....You shall have no other gods before me....You shall have no graven images....you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Yet, I still agree that scripture says what it says...so how should we understand it? Like it is stated...Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself...on these hang all the commandments. Two overarching principles do not replace Torah, they sum it up. So, with our spouse do we sum it up by making a quick concise statement about love, or by walking out very specific issues that you know are what your spouse defines as love?...this isn't complicated.

We(being inclusive here) also seem to like to pick and choose which commands to spiritualize and which ones to take literally for the meat world. For example, having no other gods is fine and we set up no statues to worship, yet we wink at all the other trappings that equate to worship of other things than God. We want to have a spiritual rest of Gods choosing, yet the day of the week is of ours....etc.

You promote using all Hebrew terms for your worship and prayers and language (religious). You disdain traditional Christianity. Many of you deny the trinity and the divinity of Jesus. You are more at home in a Jewish synagogue than in a Christian church. It's like Christ is one of your strings on your tzit-tzits instead of your Lord and Savior. An afterthought.

Response in order of statements.....
1.Since when is the Hebrew language evil or at least not an immense help in understanding scripture? I for one don't walk around speaking hebrew all day.

2.Actually, traditional christianity has disdained me first...and beleive me, I tried and tried to focus on the common ground but others would have nothing of it...but yes, I have come to disdain it too....yet I choose not to disdain people, only the institution that makes them the way they are.

3. Please show me where the trinity doctrine is put forward as a salvation issue in scripture or as worthy of division. The reformers sure thought so though...what is it you are following, the scripture or the Talmud?

4. More at home in a Jewish synagogue? Funny, that's not what the synagogue attenders think...totally unwelcome there. But christians won't let me feel at home either. Unwelcome there too. Hmmm you have something in common with the Jews, eh?

5. Well, after seeing christians wearing their christianity like a badge for 40 plus years of my life, I'll take that last comment in stride.

The church is not a synagogue. The church is Christ

.

Neither is it the lamestream protestant churchianity. That's what the Ecclesia is, those who are in the Messiah. Satan seems to know who the true church is....

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Shimri]

I guess that depends on "the man" doing the judging...

Don't let "the man" get'cha...

Col 2:4 And this I say, lest “any man” should “beguile you with enticing words.”

Col 2:8 Beware lest “any man” “spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men”, after the “rudiments of the world”, and “not after Christ”.

Col 2:18 Let “no man” “beguile you” of “your reward” in a voluntary humility and “worshipping of angels”, intrudin...g into those things which he hath not seen, “vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind”,

Col 2:22 … after the “commandments and doctrines of men?”

Col 2:16-17 Let “no man” therefore “judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths… – which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah”.

Now we can see this 'man' spoken of is certainly in no position to judge anything; not being a part of the body...a pagan.

Amazing, when you actually read what it says!