How Wonderful is the Gospel

[Emily]

Oh that's right. You hang with the 'free pass secret rapture' crowd.

Do you know where that false doctrine originated?

Good grief - do you never end with diversion, re-direction, or any other technique that you can come up with when you are cornered with the truth?

I'm not watching any videos you post nor am I going to any links you post.

You've been cornered and shamed and all you have is redirection, diversion, name games, and mocking.

[Emily]

Really? Did you want the short video all about the subject?

THAT didn't answer your questions?

I want to read your answer here. I'm not going to watch a video that weaves and dodges and reframes words and scriptures until the tada moment of what we are supposed to swallow.

Put it right here so we can discuss it. How hard could it be to answer the question?

Pretty hard I guess since you've done your best to dodge it from all directions so far.

[Emily]

Do you read the words of Jesus at all?

Those whom He casts out were professing Christians. They called Him Lord, Lord, and did works of the Holy Spirit, yet He dismisses them because they were not obedient.

Yes, and you are deciding what it is they were or were not obedient to.
That is where we disagree. You think it is the Mosaic law and we point to the law of love.

SO you are saying that your salvation is not by grace through faith alone, but that one must have works, or that they are not saved?

I am saying what scripture says. We are saved by grace alone by faith alone by Christ alone.
But those who are born again will also have the fruit of the Holy Spirit evident in their lives. That is the message Jesus gave as well as Paul.
They both speak of the fruit of the spirit. Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5 and Phil 2 all speak of the heart of one who is truly saved.

If it were by following the law then we would not need a savior. But that is your point isn't it? To you, Jesus was just the lamb and ended all that nasty temple stuff. Now you can go about your religion as if He just paid the bill and you continue on to try to fulfill the very thing He said was impossible.

Exactly. Now continue

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


So you do agree that works are necessary for salvation?

No. Works are the outward sign of salvation.

No one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and not show His love, light, and joy that overflows onto those we meet.

If someone is falsely believing they are saved they are going to hold up their works as proof they are saved.

It is like someone who is not a Jew but tries to act like one. They can't change their DNA.

And someone who is not truly born again can imitate the love that only one who truly is has and it is evident in the fruit of their life.

Scripture please? Jesus says different.

"‘Permit the children to come to Me; and do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter in at all.’ And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands upon them.”

I guess I missed the part where having faith in God demands that you be a certain age.

And perhaps you missed the part where I said I rededicated my life.

You quoted the scripture that says that Kingdom of God already belongs to such as the children. Here is another.
Matthew 18:10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

And no one who is truly born again has to re-dedicate their life to Him. What does that mean? Where is scripture about being born again several times?

It is a one time event and if it is genuine you don't need to keep rededicating. Feeling the need to rededicate is more in line with someone who is not indwelt and has never known Him.

Hatred, disobedience, lying, stealing, coveting, just to name a few.

I can go on

By 5 years old you were doing all those things AND you knew the consequences of your rebellion and told God to bug off? Wow - you were quite the mature and intelligent child.

Most children are still babies at that age and can barely brush their own teeth properly or understand the consequences of cavities if they don't let alone the fate of their eternal soul in rebellion against God.

Jesus was 12 when He went from being a child of His earthly parents to announcing His recognition of His heavenly Father. That age has been considered to be the normal age of accountability.

You should really read the Psalms before making such statements

Rededication is 100% Scriptural to believers.

Psalms is in the OT. They did not have the opportunity to be born again as we are today.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Of course not. But hey. I am not the one running around declaring people as not saved.

Edit: Not once have I made the determination that anyone is saved or not. I have given proof that salvation can be lost with disobedience, but it is not my job to determine who is a wheat and who is a tare.

Enjoy playing God, Emily.

You believe your salvation can be lost with disobedience?

Tell me please - exactly what would one have to do in order to lose their salvation. Details please.

And when do you know you have crossed that line?

And can you get saved again? Does the Holy Spirit just leave and come back like a revolving door? How does one evict the creator of the universe?

I'm not playing God. And it is extremely unkind of you to make such a statement.

[Emily]

And Emily, since you decided to interject your unScriptural opinions, I will ask you as well.


Emily, JGIG, and whoever else:

You all say that salvation is by faith alone?

I put my belief in Him a long time ago. So I can do whatever I want. Is that not correct? His grace will cover me no matter what I do. I am in.

Is that not exactly what you preach?

You can't say that one is not saved because of ones fruits, because salvation is not dependent on fruits, or else salvation would not be by faith alone, but on faith+fruit. I believed, I am saved.

Do you hand your wife a list of things she must do and if she disobeys then they will be rejected by you?
Do you do the same to your children?

Love is something that seems to escape your ability to understand on many levels.

You preach that one can just have just a "change of mind"

Just?

No one has ever said that. You did. You claim that at 5 you understood everything and became saved and you've been good to go ever since.
You are the one minimizing the extremely sobering and important decision to come to a saving faith, die to self, and be born again.

and live in sin,

No one has ever said that either. You guys keep framing our words that way and it is wrong on every level.

never asking for forgiveness for that sin

More lies on your part.

, and be okay and in perfectly right standing because our omnipotent omnipresent God apparently has a blind spot,

Do you ever get tired of completely misrepresenting what we said?
I know you take your lead from the HRM movement who keep telling you this is what we believe but if you want to really hear what we believe, I'll be happy to do it one more time.

But we have said it over and over and you guys just keep spewing this same garbage as if we never corrected you before.

and is not really all-knowing and all-seeing so all He sees is the blood of His Son, so no matter what one does, based on his FAITH ALONE, he is a-okay.

And you think that you follow the law when Jesus said it was impossible?
You are the one lying to yourself if you think that is what you are doing and judging us that we just admit that we cannot possibly measure up to the law.

However, love is possible and it is far more difficult to do than following a list of rules then go on message boards and mock and ridicule and give false witness against those that disagree with you.

[Shimri]

Yes, and you are deciding what it is they were or were not obedient to.
That is where we disagree. You think it is the Mosaic law and we point to the law of love.

The law of love is Torah.

Did you forget where Jesus pulled His greatest commandments from? Notice: Greatest, not only.

I am saying what scripture says. We are saved by grace alone by faith alone by Christ alone.
But those who are born again will also have the fruit of the Holy Spirit evident in their lives. That is the message Jesus gave as well as Paul.
They both speak of the fruit of the spirit. Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5 and Phil 2 all speak of the heart of one who is truly saved.

Double-speak.

If faith alone, fruits do not matter. If fruits do matter, it is not faith alone.

If it were by following the law then we would not need a savior.

False. The law does not give righteousness. God does. It points out sins, which are transgressions of the law.

But that is your point isn't it? To you, Jesus was just the lamb and ended all that nasty temple stuff.

Nope. He did not permanently end it, and it is blasphemy to call that which is holy "nasty."

Or was Stephen telling the truth?

Now you can go about your religion as if He just paid the bill and you continue on to try to fulfill the very thing He said was impossible.

Where did the son or the Father say it was impossible to obey?

No. Works are the outward sign of salvation.

No one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and not show His love, light, and joy that overflows onto those we meet.

So without fruits, there is no salvation. Salvation is not by faith alone.

If someone is falsely believing they are saved they are going to hold up their works as proof they are saved.

James was falsely saved, according to you.

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

It is like someone who is not a Jew but tries to act like one. They can't change their DNA.

Huh . . . and here Scripture tells me that a Jew is one on faith, and not by DNA.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Also found throughout Torah as "being cut off from His people."

And someone who is not truly born again can imitate the love that only one who truly is has and it is evident in the fruit of their life.

Scripture?

And no one who is truly born again has to re-dedicate their life to Him. What does that mean? Where is scripture about being born again several times?

So you are arguing with me over something and you do not even know what it means!?

ROFL

Are you serious with this?

It is a one time event and if it is genuine you don't need to keep rededicating. Feeling the need to rededicate is more in line with someone who is not indwelt and has never known Him.

Look at the temple for your answers, Emily.

By 5 years old you were doing all those things AND you knew the consequences of your rebellion and told God to bug off? Wow - you were quite the mature and intelligent child.

I am a church boy. All sin is rebellion. No one says you have to tell God to bug off. WHere do you get this stuff from?

Most children are still babies at that age and can barely brush their own teeth properly or understand the consequences of cavities if they don't let alone the fate of their eternal soul in rebellion against God.

Don't know what kind of kids you are raising.

My kids were completely off the teat at 1. AT five, they are reading the Bible, brushing their own teeth, taking their own showers, and doing their chores.

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

"Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates"

Psalms is in the OT. They did not have the opportunity to be born again as we are today.

False. Jesus says Nachdimon should have known. Paul says that they drank the same spiritual drink and ate the same spiritual bread.

It does not matter if a Scripture is found on one side of the blank page that was inserted by Marcion (look him up).

The Bible is a whole and unbroken.

ALL SCRIPTURE is good for doctrine, correction, rebuke, and instruction.

You believe your salvation can be lost with disobedience?

That is what THE WHOLE of Scripture says.

Tell me please - exactly what would one have to do in order to lose their salvation. Details please.

And when do you know you have crossed that line?

I do not know, and I do not wish to test God. All I know is that Scripture is true, and OSAS does not match with Scripture, on either side of the Marcion page.

And can you get saved again? Does the Holy Spirit just leave and come back like a revolving door? How does one evict the creator of the universe?

There is always repentance. Do you not read your Scripture?

I'm not playing God. And it is extremely unkind of you to make such a statement.

Yes you are playing God. Who grants salvation? You or God? So who determines who is saved? You or God?

You just told me that I was not saved, and you continue to do so.

Get your feelings off your sleeve. Why are Christians so thin-skinned?

[Shimri]

[QUOTE=Emily;2121080]Do you hand your wife a list of things she must do and if she disobeys then they will be rejected by you?

If I saved my wife from prostitution (Pretty Woman lol), and I asked that she not do that anymore and she turned right back to it? Most definitely.

Do you do the same to your children?

Yes. I have routinely done it. Tell the kids we will go get ice cream if the clean their rooms.

They do not pay for the ice cream. It is a free gift. They do not clean their rooms, they do not get ice cream.

Love is something that seems to escape your ability to understand on many levels.

Must be why I am not saved, according to you.

Just?

Yep. Repentance is just a change of mind.

No one has ever said that

Really? Perhaps you should go back and start reading from page 27 again.

No one has ever said that either. You guys keep framing our words that way and it is wrong on every level.

If you do not ask forgiveness, you are living in sin. Simple as that. You all say you do not have to ask forgiveness anymore, so the sin is still on you. But God does not see that sin, He sees the blood of Jesus.

More lies on your part.

Go back and read this thread Emily.

Do you ever get tired of completely misrepresenting what we said?

So God does see our sin, or He does not?

Does He see all, or does He have a blind spot?

I know you take your lead from the HRM movement who keep telling you this is what we believe but if you want to really hear what we believe, I'll be happy to do it one more time.

I take my lead from the word of God. I need no "movement."

But we have said it over and over and you guys just keep spewing this same garbage as if we never corrected you before.

Then tell us plainly.

Do you sin after you are saved?

If you do sin, do you have to ask forgiveness for that sin?

And you think that you follow the law when Jesus said it was impossible?

Scripture please?

However, love is possible and it is far more difficult to do than following a list of rules then go on message boards and mock and ridicule and give false witness against those that disagree with you.

What is love?


And you failed to answer the questions at the end.

Can one be truly saved by faith alone, if fruits have a bearing on salvation?

Can one fall from grace because they "put themselves under the law", and thus OSAS is false? Or can one do what one wants (including obey Torah), and he is in like Flynn?

[Al Swearengen]

I'm not going to watch a video that weaves and dodges and reframes words and scriptures until the tada moment of what we are supposed to swallow.

You say the video weaves and dodges and reframes words and scriptures but you did not watch it.

Makes sense.

[JGIG]

Oh, I'm sure they have some sort of "out" for that, as they do for adulterers. It seems that they're allowed to actually pick and choose what laws they follow, based upon extra-biblical sources such as the Talmud, the writings of Maimonides, etc.

Yeah, it's the 'we obey the whole Bible' except for all the parts they don't.

Seriously. That's it. That's their 'out'.

[Al Swearengen]

Yeah, it's the 'we obey the whole Bible' except for all the parts they don't.

Seriously. That's it. That's their 'out'.

Lol. And you say you never repented from sin, so you can do any sin you want and not worry about it. No law; no sin!

Seriously. That's it. That's your 'out'.

[JGIG]

Good grief - do you never end with diversion, re-direction, or any other technique that you can come up with when you are cornered with the truth?

I'm not watching any videos you post nor am I going to any links you post.

You've been cornered and shamed and all you have is redirection, diversion, name games, and mocking.

I posted this at my JGIG facebook page a few days ago, after a few HRMers inundated a post (over 700 comments), and it applies here, as well (they are so predictible, ha!):

It's been interesting and demonstrative to see the reaction of the Judaizing faction to the OP - a couple simply dismissed the OP; others simply ignored it and started flinging every Judaizing doctrine at the wall hoping some would stick, copying and pasting away, machine-gunning so much material that those unfamiliar with sound doctrine might be swayed. This shows the weakness of your positions; the religious, controlling spirit behind the doctrines you espouse can't stand up to measured, steady, scrutiny.

Yep. It's the same Modus Operandi here.

-JGIG