How Wonderful is the Gospel

[Emily]

Amein. Some are just trying to establish how SCRIPTURE actually defines sin. A 'fleeting' question for some engaged in this topic; but quite boldly stated in the Word.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Gotta love scripture duels

Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

1 Tim 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.


So if you are under the law then which one of the folks described in 1 Tim 1 are you?

Let's read more of Romans 7 that you quoted from:

7 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:1 [ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

[Al Swearengen]

Gotta love scripture duels

Romans 8:1 [ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Love that verse! Now for the actual context:

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:3 For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, Footnotes: 1Or does not obey.2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.

Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Messiah, this one is not His.

[Emily]

Love that verse! Now for the actual context:

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah יהושע, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the Torah of the Spirit of the life in Messiah יהושע has set me free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom 8:3 For the Torah being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim, having His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,

Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, Footnotes: 1Or does not obey.2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.

Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Messiah, this one is not His.

Interesting how you completely ignored the rest of my post.

That is because you are picking and choosing which scriptures you are skilled at spinning towards your conclusion.

Tell me which one of those in the list of 1 Tim 1 describes you - since you claim to be under the law?

[Al Swearengen]

Interesting how you completely ignored the rest of my post.

That is because you are picking and choosing which scriptures you are skilled at spinning towards your conclusion.

Tell me which one of those in the list of 1 Tim 1 describes you - since you claim to be under the law?

No spinning necessary. I gave the Scriptures in context that you must have forgotten about. Who was picking and choosing?

I agree with 1 Tim 1.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Does YOUR doctrine promote sin, as is shy to define it? Or, as the Scriptures I gave, do you walk in the Spirit or war against it (carnal mind)and oppose His instructions?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against Yahweh: for it is not subject to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed can be.

Carnal or Spirit? Subject or not subject? Able or unable?

[JGIG]

Amein.

Another area she fumbles horribly on is when she is asked what she repented from. Last time she answered me it was "from trying to establish my own righteousness". Really? THAT's true repentance???

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Altemu, true repentance is the changing of one's mind and heart to agree with God - that our attempts at righteousness are repeated acts of NOT submitting to God's Righteousness! We will always fall short (sin/transgression of the Law, for which Christ dealt with totally and forever at the Cross -see 1 John 2:2, Romans 5, Hebrews 10); God never does fall short. God calls us to believe on the One He has sent and to love one another (bear fruit via His Spirit, see Galatians 5); not to establish our own righteous acts via the Law.

Tit 2:14

who gave Himself for us, to redeem us from all lawlessness1 and to cleanse for Himself a people, His own possession, ardent for good works.2Footnotes: 1Lawlessness is a synonym for sin (1 John 3:4), Mt. 1:21, Acts 3:19 & 26, Acts 26:18, Rom. 6:1-22, Eph. 2:1-10, 1 John 3:8, Titus 3:5.2Mt. 16:27.

Tit 2:15 Speak these matters, urge, and reprove1 with all authority. Let no one despise you. Footnote: 1Or confute.

She runs from defining SIN as Scripture defines it. That's when you get a 1000 word treatise of artful dodging and distraction; but never and answer to a simple question.

Gee whiz, Altemu, you left out the context here (shocking that you would do that, really):

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

For what has appeared to bring salvation? Grace. Law was given to increase transgressions and bring mankind to the end of him/herself.

What trains us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions?

Law?

No.

Grace does.

The Law actually stirs up sin and brings death. Paul said, "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." (Romans 7)

Paul also says "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." (1 Corinthians 15)

Then he goes on to say this: "56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

But thanks be to God for victory through the Law?

No.

Through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Why?

Because in Him we have His Holy Spirit, and if we are led by His Spirit, we are not under Law (which stirs up sin, is the power of sin, and produces death), and if we are led by His Spirit (His Life in us), He produces His Fruit through us.

That's Grace, and that's what Titus 2 is talking about, not about adhering to the Law (which stirs up sin, is the power of sin, and produces death).

-JGIG

[Al Swearengen]

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

-JGIG

JGIG, we are not talking about BEFORE He forgives us, but what comes AFTER! Continue in sin to abound grace? Yah forbid!

Let's look a little deeper:

Rom 10:4For Messiah is the goal1 of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’to everyone who believes. Footnote: 1Or end purpose; not termination.

Rom 10:5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by them."

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ " – that is, to bring Messiah down; or,
Rom 10:7 " ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ " – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:

Where was he drawing this from, one might ask:


Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Isn't that awesome to know what exactly he was talking about?



To further supplement the Gospel message he was talking about:


Heb 4:2 For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it.

[Al Swearengen]

But thanks be to God for victory through the Law?

-JGIG

I know you like to throw things like that in a wall of text to maybe confuse a reader, but can you for once say where ANYONE ever said that?

Again...to make it clear...it's what comes AFTER He saves us we are talking about, not salvation by the law!

[Al Swearengen]

JGIG, what was the Gospel preached unto them?

Heb 4:2 For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it.

What was ther Gospel Yeshua was proclaiming before the cross?

Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Let's keep in mind that there was no New Testament to draw from.

[JGIG]

JGIG, we are not talking about BEFORE He forgives us, but what comes AFTER! Continue in sin to abound grace? Yah forbid!

Let's look a little deeper:

Rom 10:4For Messiah is the goal1 of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’to everyone who believes. Footnote: 1Or end purpose; not termination.

Rom 10:5 For Mosheh writes about the righteousness which is of the Torah, "The man who does these shall live by them."

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of belief speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens?’ " – that is, to bring Messiah down; or,
Rom 10:7 " ‘Who shall descend into the abyss?’ " – that is, to bring Messiah up from the dead.

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" – that is, the word of belief which we are proclaiming:

Where was he drawing this from, one might ask:


Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Isn't that awesome to know what exactly he was talking about?



To further supplement the Gospel message he was talking about:


Heb 4:2 For indeed the Good News was brought to us as well as to them, but the word which they heard did not profit them, not having been mixed with belief in those who heard it.

Altemu, your focus is on sin and Law. If you are in Christ, your focus is to be on Christ and His gift of righteousness. Who are you in Christ?

As for the Scriptures you quoted, they don't point to Torah observance for the believer in Christ; they point to belief in

1. Who Christ is
2. What He came to do
3. What that actually accomplished, and
4. Who believers are in Christ

The Scriptures are clear; Law stirs up sin, Law is the power of sin, Law produces death. If sin reduction is your goal, the Law is not the way to go!

-JGIG

[JGIG]

I know you like to throw things like that in a wall of text to maybe confuse a reader, but can you for once say where ANYONE ever said that?

Again...to make it clear...it's what comes AFTER He saves us we are talking about, not salvation by the law!

Huh. My post was no longer than some of yours.

Oh well.

Equal weights and measures .

And we're both talking about what comes after salvation; the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Grace does that; Law stirs up and is the power of sin (Romans 7, 1 Corinthians 15:56).

If sin reduction is your goal, the Law is not the right choice.

-JGIG