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Thread: Dog training problems and related issues

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  1. #1
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    He looks like a sweetie- with a mischievous streak! The first weeks with an adult (even a young one) adoption can be a bit challenging, but as you get used to each other, it usually works out great.

    If there are any human dominance issues *at all*, don't play "tug of war" or any other "contest" type game where the dog is actually directly challenging you.

    With most dogs (probably 99% of them... my experiences with Bandit and an extremely dominant Akita male were absolute anomalies... valuable experiences, but nothing I'd wish on my worst enemy!) "dominance" mostly means "I haven't seen a human worth following... yet". And if you display your worthiness (being steady, and consistent with both loving attention and discipline as needed) the "dominance issues" often disappear like magic.

    Davy... I'm glad I'm not turning you off... I surely don't mean to be critical, but you're definitely getting played a bit! Molly sounds like a pup who is very engaged with her humans... which means that she focuses so much on "fun" that she forgets little issues like going potty! If you leave her in the crate at times (basically, any time she hasn't been out AND "went" within the last 2 hours), and then let her out and *immediately* head outside, you should be able to get her trained.

    As smart as she is, she should fairly quickly learn that if she messes in the house, it earns her a trip to the crate for awhile. This shouldn't be in the spirit of punishment; don't yell and scream... just show her the mess, express "disappointment" (voice tone means a lot more than the words) and put her in the crate for a bit. (an hour, maybe, unless it is bedtime). Then let her out, and immediately take her outside to "go".

    Housebreaking can be time consuming... we usually accomplish it in few days, but it can be an INTENSE few days... essentially someone keeps an eye on the pup, at least peripherally, at all times when they're running around loose in the house. ANY hint of them beginning to sniff the floor, or squat, has us leap up, grab the pup and head out the door with them. It's like a Chinese fire drill at times, but it works! If I notice "scanning" behavior (the pup sniffing out a potty spot indoors) I make my patented "gong show buzzer" sound in my throat (sort of a mechanical buzzing noise saying "uh-uh" as I grab the pup and head for the door. Then we set them down on the grass, and if using "potty command", give it.

    You want to know how smart pups can be? Bandit was scary smart... and, of course, patently insane later on! But as a pup, he was a BRAT. Bullheaded, very dominant and absolutely saw no reason why humans should be Alpha!

    One evening, when he was about 10 weeks old, we still had papers down, and he was completely paper trained, and starting to go outside a lot more. He was being a snot at supper, chewing on our feet and being pretty rough about it, even when we scolded him and tried to get him to stop. So I got the leash out, and tied him in the corner of the kitchen, so he could reach his papers, but not our feet.

    He promptly gave us a "look", stomped over to the papers and peed. It was NOT a biological need- it was a comment! And then, he looked at us, walked over to a couple of bags of groceries which had been sitting on the floor all afternoon, waiting for me to find time to put them away, gave us that look again, and deliberately set his teeth in a bag, and ripped it open, spilling the contents!

    It was pure temper tantrum... once he got it out of his system, he sat down and behaved for the rest of the meal!

    THAT was the type of pup I NEVER want to see again!

    Molly will be just fine... you're just going to have to put some effort into staying ahead of her! It sounds like she may have a bit of a lazy streak, too, where hey! The floor worked just fine the last time... why not? LOL! But it probably also is that she doesn't quite know HOW to ask to go out! (oh, and every time you take her through that door, you ask 'do you want to go out?" or otherwise use "go out" in a sentence. Dixie "nudges" me when she wants something... pushes my leg or arm with her nose. Then I have to figure out what she wants! I'll ask "do you need to go out" and if that's what she was trying to tell me, she'll trot to the door. If not, she'll stay sitting next to me, clearly wanting attention for a bit.

    But it took some time to teach that!

    It's funny... writing some of this, I have to really *think* about what we do... it's so automatic after almost 40 years of training pups! I hope I'm explaining it understandably!

    Summerthyme

  2. #2
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    Summerthyme, you couldn't offend me or turn me off.
    If I didn't want your opinion, I wouldn't ask.

    I talked to Hannah about some of this and told her this is what we're doing
    Plato once said, “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools, because they have to say something.”

    "Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt." "Men willingly believe what they wish to believe."
    Julius Caesar

    There's no natural calamity that government can't make worse.
    Bill Bonner

  3. #3
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    She's a tough one.
    We got a long rope lead which goes on her every time she goes out.
    If she doen't "go" she's in the crate until she goes outside and all night.

    This morning she did both outside. Twice.
    While I had my back turned she totally tore a hole in her bed and ripped out all the stuffing.

    Then she peed all over the old dog's bed.
    She has done that a lot.
    I'm guessing that's for dominance over the old dog

    And she's been tearing through the house like a maniac.

    I'm thinking of getting one of those runs that go on a wire line and hooking it up to the metal clothes line to run more of her energy off.
    Thinking about a shock collar for a couple things, I don't like this idea but I need to cool her jets a little
    Thoughts?
    Plato once said, “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools, because they have to say something.”

    "Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt." "Men willingly believe what they wish to believe."
    Julius Caesar

    There's no natural calamity that government can't make worse.
    Bill Bonner

  4. #4
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    Way too young for a shock collar! This is pure puppy "stuff". It's a shame the old dog apparently isn't interested in disciplining the little stinker!

    The pup we've kept (for now; we'll be starting him on cattle and possibly sheep and selling him as a started dog next summer- we hope!) was probably the worst one in the litter for being a brat. Not destructive (well, except for typical puppy destruction- they've chewed up multiple stuffed animals, and God help us if they ever find a piece of paper! LOL!), or aggressive... just mischievous and bratty!

    Dixie- the black and tan ES- has NO tolerance for bratty puppies! I caught her one day holding the pup down by the throat on the lawn- he was screaming and thrashing around, and I thought she was hurting him... until I looked closer. Her mouth was OPEN... she was simply holding him down, but not clamping down on his throat at all.

    She held him down for TEN minutes! (I sat down to watch this one- it was instructive!) Every time she'd let him up, he'd go right back to nipping and biting at her mouth... that was apparently the cause of the "discipline session". So, she'd hold him down again!

    After 10 minutes of this, when she let up... he laid there, like a turtle on it's back- clearly saying "ok, you win!". But... that wasn't enough! Dixie had apparently decided she was going to straighten him out... so she left him on his back, and started gently nipping each of his legs in turn- again, not really using pressure, just "miming" the behavior that he had been doing to the other dogs. If he tried to nip at her to stop her- back she went to his throat!

    After probably 15 minutes total, she could do ANYthing to the pup, and he'd just lay there. He finally learned who was the boss- and it wasn't him!

    I don't like dog runs... but they're far better than simply tying them (which can cause all sorts of issues... it's a bad idea). IF she'll play on the run- some don't- it would give you a better way to keep her outside longer without having to constantly supervise. We have a very different situation here, with the older dogs keeping an eye on the pup, and no traffic to speak of, plus a ton of room for them to roam around without bothering anyone or leaving our property.

    Now, the peeing on stuff deliberately- that IS "punishment" worthy. If I saw it happen, I'd have the pup lifted half off the ground by the scruff of the neck in about 5 seconds, and they'd get a good shake (not enough to hurt them- just "emphasizing" that you're serious) and a very stern scolding. You're right- that is dominance behavior, and it's not to be tolerated. (note, I'm not seeing ANY hint of "people dominance" in anything you're reporting, and even the really strong Alpha male pup we sold last was very submissive to people... but he was extremely dominant with the other dogs)

    (to clarify a bit: "punishing" a puppy for messing in the house- smacking them or sticking their noses into it- is futile, IF they "went" because they didn't have any choice. And that is the more usual scenario. In those cases, simple maturity and a growing bladder will solve the problem. But in the case of deliberate "marking territory"... well, that should be disciplined, and the discipline needs to be strong enough to make them think "oh, boy! I really goofed... better not do that again!" And that takes a different level for each dog. I'm getting the feeling Molly takes after Red (her mother) strongly. Prince- our pup from last year- is very "soft". He's not timid, but man, he HATES to be wrong. And if you yell at him for something, he just lies down and quits for a time. He clearly is saying "ok, I was wrong. I'm going to stay here and not get into trouble".

    Red, OTOH, knows when you get after her for being wrong- she just doesn't really care! Her entire life is herding... She's stubborn and "selectively deaf", and we often wish we'd gotten her as a young pup and worked through a lot of those issues when it could have changed things.

    Essentially, you need to reward "good" behavior, and make the "bad" stuff "no fun" to the point that she doesn't do it. And you need to watch the "any attention beats no attention" problem!

    I suspect you're missing a few little things... I'll bet you *almost* anything that before she started tearing into her bed, she gave you (or anyone who was around) a "look" to see if anyone was paying attention! I mean, a lot of "destruction" is simply teething and playing- Dixie and Prince removed every netting cover on 24 blueberry bushes last summer, and chewed them all into nice, hand sized pieces which they then spread all over the back lawn! Clearly, that was a huge fun game for them (and this year, NO problem with any of it... they DO outgrow most of this)

    But chewing in the house, especially if it's not something firm (which is generally teething issues- Bandit chewed up at least a dozen chunks of 2x4 when he was teething as a pup! And no, that's NOT a good idea... but he'd grab them from the woodbox or machine shed.. he just preferred wood for teething) is more of a "brat" issue.

    Oh, and pups are very much like toddlers- if you don't see them, and don't hear them- you might want to check to see what they're up to!!

    Now, practical stuff- there are sprays out there ("bitter apple") which I'd suggest you get and USE. Spray her bed, any shoes (if that's a problem) and any furniture legs, door frames, etc that she has shown an interest in chewing. It will make chewing on that stuff a lot less desirable. If you see her even trying to chew, redirect her (pick her up, take her away from where she was starting to chew, and then give her a toy, saying "chew that")

    If she goes back and tries again, crate her for 30 minutes or so.

    One of the problems with Border Collies (and the same traits make them just fabulous dogs, once they're grown and trained!) is their extremely high energy levels, plus being very bright. Again, it's like kids- a very smart preschooler is going to be a much more challenging kid to keep on track and engaged than one who is more phlegmatic and has less energy. But then, the breed has been bred to be able to run a hundred miles in a day, herding sheep- and then go back and do it again the next day.. and the next!

    Believe me, she WILL outgrow most of this behavior, and things do really start settling down in some ways at around 6 months.

    Summerthyme

  5. #5
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    I'm not complaing about Molly.
    I love her.
    Some days a little more than others.
    You're right about watching her, though..

    This happened in a short period this morning.
    Hannah had walked her and she did her business.
    I had just walked her the second time and sat at the desk (or was doing dishes). My wife came out and saw the bed.
    It wasn't very long that she was alone.

    As far as peeing, I was always under the impression that if you didn't catch them in the act, it did no good to discipline them.

    The old dog is just a little too old.
    Occasionally she gets tired of Molly roughing her up and lets Molly know but, otherwise, she tries to ignore her. Even when Molly is chewing on her

    I'm not a fan of shock collars but Molly heads to the road and willfully is deaf to us calling her.
    The long rope may be a better tool
    Plato once said, “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools, because they have to say something.”

    "Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt." "Men willingly believe what they wish to believe."
    Julius Caesar

    There's no natural calamity that government can't make worse.
    Bill Bonner

  6. #6
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    I was wondering something about crates.
    If a young dog can't "hold it" when free how can they go hours in a crate and not mess it?

    Molly's quality of life is being diminished and I feel bad about it.
    But not bad enough to stop

    Molly now has two places. Outside with me or in the crate.
    I can't let her loose in the house for now.

    Yesterday, she was out a lot and for pretty long periods of time.

    When we came in, she'd leave doggy dumplings on the floor. She did this several times.

    She was in the crate for about 7 or 8 hours over night.
    I had her out for about 20 minutes this morning and she tinkled only.
    But she did check out the cat and explore the perimeter.

    I let her wander where she wanted hoping she would find her spot.
    She didn't.

    Back in the crate.

    Getting ready to take her out again. Even if she does go, she is quite capable of coming in and dumping again.

    She is one tough little girl.
    I hate crates but feel I have no choice
    Plato once said, “Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools, because they have to say something.”

    "Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt." "Men willingly believe what they wish to believe."
    Julius Caesar

    There's no natural calamity that government can't make worse.
    Bill Bonner

  7. #7
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    I was told to take Little Bit out 15 minutes after she eats. Maybe a timer.

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