Dog training problems and related issues

[Davy Crockett]

She's a tough one.
We got a long rope lead which goes on her every time she goes out.
If she doen't "go" she's in the crate until she goes outside and all night.

This morning she did both outside. Twice.
While I had my back turned she totally tore a hole in her bed and ripped out all the stuffing.

Then she peed all over the old dog's bed.
She has done that a lot.
I'm guessing that's for dominance over the old dog

And she's been tearing through the house like a maniac.

I'm thinking of getting one of those runs that go on a wire line and hooking it up to the metal clothes line to run more of her energy off.
Thinking about a shock collar for a couple things, I don't like this idea but I need to cool her jets a little
Thoughts?

[Summerthyme]

Way too young for a shock collar! This is pure puppy "stuff". It's a shame the old dog apparently isn't interested in disciplining the little stinker!

The pup we've kept (for now; we'll be starting him on cattle and possibly sheep and selling him as a started dog next summer- we hope!) was probably the worst one in the litter for being a brat. Not destructive (well, except for typical puppy destruction- they've chewed up multiple stuffed animals, and God help us if they ever find a piece of paper! LOL!), or aggressive... just mischievous and bratty!

Dixie- the black and tan ES- has NO tolerance for bratty puppies! I caught her one day holding the pup down by the throat on the lawn- he was screaming and thrashing around, and I thought she was hurting him... until I looked closer. Her mouth was OPEN... she was simply holding him down, but not clamping down on his throat at all.

She held him down for TEN minutes! (I sat down to watch this one- it was instructive!) Every time she'd let him up, he'd go right back to nipping and biting at her mouth... that was apparently the cause of the "discipline session". So, she'd hold him down again!

After 10 minutes of this, when she let up... he laid there, like a turtle on it's back- clearly saying "ok, you win!". But... that wasn't enough! Dixie had apparently decided she was going to straighten him out... so she left him on his back, and started gently nipping each of his legs in turn- again, not really using pressure, just "miming" the behavior that he had been doing to the other dogs. If he tried to nip at her to stop her- back she went to his throat!

After probably 15 minutes total, she could do ANYthing to the pup, and he'd just lay there. He finally learned who was the boss- and it wasn't him!

I don't like dog runs... but they're far better than simply tying them (which can cause all sorts of issues... it's a bad idea). IF she'll play on the run- some don't- it would give you a better way to keep her outside longer without having to constantly supervise. We have a very different situation here, with the older dogs keeping an eye on the pup, and no traffic to speak of, plus a ton of room for them to roam around without bothering anyone or leaving our property.

Now, the peeing on stuff deliberately- that IS "punishment" worthy. If I saw it happen, I'd have the pup lifted half off the ground by the scruff of the neck in about 5 seconds, and they'd get a good shake (not enough to hurt them- just "emphasizing" that you're serious) and a very stern scolding. You're right- that is dominance behavior, and it's not to be tolerated. (note, I'm not seeing ANY hint of "people dominance" in anything you're reporting, and even the really strong Alpha male pup we sold last was very submissive to people... but he was extremely dominant with the other dogs)

(to clarify a bit: "punishing" a puppy for messing in the house- smacking them or sticking their noses into it- is futile, IF they "went" because they didn't have any choice. And that is the more usual scenario. In those cases, simple maturity and a growing bladder will solve the problem. But in the case of deliberate "marking territory"... well, that should be disciplined, and the discipline needs to be strong enough to make them think "oh, boy! I really goofed... better not do that again!" And that takes a different level for each dog. I'm getting the feeling Molly takes after Red (her mother) strongly. Prince- our pup from last year- is very "soft". He's not timid, but man, he HATES to be wrong. And if you yell at him for something, he just lies down and quits for a time. He clearly is saying "ok, I was wrong. I'm going to stay here and not get into trouble".

Red, OTOH, knows when you get after her for being wrong- she just doesn't really care! Her entire life is herding... She's stubborn and "selectively deaf", and we often wish we'd gotten her as a young pup and worked through a lot of those issues when it could have changed things.

Essentially, you need to reward "good" behavior, and make the "bad" stuff "no fun" to the point that she doesn't do it. And you need to watch the "any attention beats no attention" problem!

I suspect you're missing a few little things... I'll bet you *almost* anything that before she started tearing into her bed, she gave you (or anyone who was around) a "look" to see if anyone was paying attention! I mean, a lot of "destruction" is simply teething and playing- Dixie and Prince removed every netting cover on 24 blueberry bushes last summer, and chewed them all into nice, hand sized pieces which they then spread all over the back lawn! Clearly, that was a huge fun game for them (and this year, NO problem with any of it... they DO outgrow most of this)

But chewing in the house, especially if it's not something firm (which is generally teething issues- Bandit chewed up at least a dozen chunks of 2x4 when he was teething as a pup! And no, that's NOT a good idea... but he'd grab them from the woodbox or machine shed.. he just preferred wood for teething) is more of a "brat" issue.

Oh, and pups are very much like toddlers- if you don't see them, and don't hear them- you might want to check to see what they're up to!!

Now, practical stuff- there are sprays out there ("bitter apple") which I'd suggest you get and USE. Spray her bed, any shoes (if that's a problem) and any furniture legs, door frames, etc that she has shown an interest in chewing. It will make chewing on that stuff a lot less desirable. If you see her even trying to chew, redirect her (pick her up, take her away from where she was starting to chew, and then give her a toy, saying "chew that")

If she goes back and tries again, crate her for 30 minutes or so.

One of the problems with Border Collies (and the same traits make them just fabulous dogs, once they're grown and trained!) is their extremely high energy levels, plus being very bright. Again, it's like kids- a very smart preschooler is going to be a much more challenging kid to keep on track and engaged than one who is more phlegmatic and has less energy. But then, the breed has been bred to be able to run a hundred miles in a day, herding sheep- and then go back and do it again the next day.. and the next!

Believe me, she WILL outgrow most of this behavior, and things do really start settling down in some ways at around 6 months.

Summerthyme

[Davy Crockett]

I'm not complaing about Molly.
I love her.
Some days a little more than others.
You're right about watching her, though..

This happened in a short period this morning.
Hannah had walked her and she did her business.
I had just walked her the second time and sat at the desk (or was doing dishes). My wife came out and saw the bed.
It wasn't very long that she was alone.

As far as peeing, I was always under the impression that if you didn't catch them in the act, it did no good to discipline them.

The old dog is just a little too old.
Occasionally she gets tired of Molly roughing her up and lets Molly know but, otherwise, she tries to ignore her. Even when Molly is chewing on her

I'm not a fan of shock collars but Molly heads to the road and willfully is deaf to us calling her.
The long rope may be a better tool

[Davy Crockett]

I was wondering something about crates.
If a young dog can't "hold it" when free how can they go hours in a crate and not mess it?

Molly's quality of life is being diminished and I feel bad about it.
But not bad enough to stop

Molly now has two places. Outside with me or in the crate.
I can't let her loose in the house for now.

Yesterday, she was out a lot and for pretty long periods of time.

When we came in, she'd leave doggy dumplings on the floor. She did this several times.

She was in the crate for about 7 or 8 hours over night.
I had her out for about 20 minutes this morning and she tinkled only.
But she did check out the cat and explore the perimeter.

I let her wander where she wanted hoping she would find her spot.
She didn't.

Back in the crate.

Getting ready to take her out again. Even if she does go, she is quite capable of coming in and dumping again.

She is one tough little girl.
I hate crates but feel I have no choice

[farmermom]

I was told to take Little Bit out 15 minutes after she eats. Maybe a timer.

[2ndfiddle]

What a great thread! I read through it all, just to see if my questions/concerns were addressed. (They weren't.)

Both issues involve a 7-year-old Scottie, and we got her as a puppy. We even paid for additional puppy training, and she's been great till now.

We recently relocated to be near family (2 grandsons now!) and these issues have come up since then. I need to note that we moved here after our daughter's family moved here, meaning, our dogs were already used to them before we moved.

1. Most critical - Kenzie "snapped" at our 4-year-old grandson for no obvious reason (no actual bite or anything that we could tell) about three months ago. Even with no obvious physical injury, he cried for a long time and now he's afraid of all dogs. Not just ours. We also have a very happy and harmless 10-year-old Beagle (Sadie), so he wants nothing to do with her either. It's sad watching his hesitation to even come into our home, when the dogs come to greet him. (They don't jump on him.)

We watch Kenzie constantly (well, both of them) when the boys are around, and usually just keep them separated. But now, our 1-year-old grandson has decided that he loves dogs and constantly wants to pet them. Sadie's fine with that, loves it actually. Kenzie just goes off to her bed most of the time. But we have noticed on a few occasions, with both dogs resting in their dog beds (not in their crates), Kenzie will start to growl when the younger GS approaches. So we separate them, meaning the dogs go out or into their crates with the doors latched.

Of course we're fearful that something could set Kenzie off any time, and with potentially serious results, but we don't want to end up with the younger GS unable to play at all with them and maybe having him end up fearful too. We'd like both boys to develop a love and respect for dogs, but obviously our grandsons' safety is paramount here.

Is all that confusing? Hope you know what I mean.

How can we - or CAN WE - train Kenzie not to growl or snap or bite at all?

2 - Kenzie has now decided that she has a taste for books. So far, hard-backed, OLD (antique, valuable) books that she removes from the bottom shelves of the bookcases. She has literally removed and consumed pages as well as covers of several of these books!

I keep the books on the lowest shelves because of their weight, so I can't really move them all up to higher shelves.

This evening, her tummy rebelled and she threw up many pages of these tomes. I do know this could lead to bowel or other GI obstructions, which we'd like to avoid.

I have been searching for a reason why she would start doing this after all this time, but the reason I'm finding is *boredom.* I have a hard time buying that, since her daily routine has not changed at all. I also have not found anything linking this to any kind of nutritional deficiency, which is what I initially suspected, as is common in humans with odd cravings.

Is it time to find another home for Kenzie (or both of them)??? They are fine with just us - two old farts living a very boring, quiet life - until the boys come over.

Any advice would be most appreciated!

[Summerthyme]

That's a tough one. I suspect (addressing the easier problem first) the book chewing is a sign of insecurity, rather than boredom (if the dog wasn't bored before it's unlikely to be now) There *could* be physical issues involved, though (I currently have a teething puppy who LOVES paper.. we constantly have to redirect him into less destructive avenues)

The simplest way to solve this is to get some of the bitter spray they sell and give the books a good coating- I've used it on books, furniture (including antiques) etc with absolutely no visible effects, save the dogs simply won't touch it once they get a taste. Of course, I'd try it on one small area of any truly valuable book- although anything with great value probably ought to be moved to a higher bookshelf for now, despite the inconvenience.

The problem with the kids is much bigger, and may not be easily solvable... well, let's say it may not be solvable in the way you'd like, with the dogs able to be free at all times when the children are visiting.

Scotties are unfortunately not known for their tolerance with children; while individual dogs (obviously) vary, this dog hasn't been habituated to the *constant* movement, noise and "displacement" children cause. He's clearly showing that he does feel displaced (obviously, the grandchildren ARE going to get more attention than the dogs while they are visiting!)

What I would do is start asserting your dominance (you MUST be the pack leader, but most of us who have dogs as pets, without a clear need for them to obey instantly, often let a lot of little things slide, so the dog starts believing they're the boss) without the kids there. This means YOU go through doors first (make the dog sit and stay - I use "wait", as mentioned above- and only after you are well past the doorway, do you call them through).

Food doesn't get put down until the dog "earns" it by sitting or laying down on command.. and they must stay in the sit or down until you release them. If you are used to feeding the dogs at the same time you eat (a common practice, to keep the dogs from "pestering" you at mealtime), STOP. Humans eat first... the dogs are then fed afterwards. This establishes you as the benevolent leader, from which all good things come- or don't come, if they aren't properly submissive.

If you're already doing this, and the dog is just grumpy, I apologize- but I know how easy it is to get "sloppy" in the pack hierarchy, especially when there seems to be no harm in it.

We currently have a pack of four dogs, and it's been highly instructive to watch how the adult dogs (including two who are barely out of puppyhood themselves, at 18 months old) dominate the pup (going on 4 months)... even if they aren't hungry, when I put food down for him, they immediately physically drive him away from the food and eat a few bites; he's only allowed to eat after they are "done"! (and they will physically force him to the ground and stand on him if he "dares" try to sneak a bite!)

The same thing goes on when I let the mostly-outdoor dogs in the house; Dixie, the English Shepherd bitch is the only true house dog, but the others are let in daily for anywhere from a few minutes to several hours, for socialization, training in house manners, and, in the case of the pup, potty training) EVERY TIME- even though they all may have been playing happily and apparently as equals outdoors five minutes earlier- Dixie will have all three of the outside dogs dominated and on their backs... after which they all get along just fine!

Until you're sure the Scotty is understanding his "place" in the pack, it will be necessary to crate him when the kids are visiting... but hopefully, this won't take long, because that is likely to breed resentment in the dog (the less subordinate he sees his "place" in your pack, the more resentful he's likely to be)

Once you are sure you've got control over the dog, it's time to start socializing with the kids. It would be best if you could enlist the aid of the four year old in helping with this (the baby is just too young)... if not, maybe you can "borrow" another preschooler who isn't afraid of dogs to help!

I'd put the dog in a sit/stay, when the child arrives on the other side of the door. For a bit, insist on them knocking rather than simply entering your house (assuming your household is like ours- when our kids visit, in the unlikely instance that we didn't notice their arrival, they'd just come inside the house). Have the child hold a treat, and greet them in a normal- non effusive- manner, making sure the dog stays where they are (I'd have them about 10 feet away from the door if that's possible). If necessary, use a leash to enforce the "stay".

Once the child is inside, and the door is closed, then you have the child call the dog to them, and tell them to "sit" in front of them. Again, you- as pack leader- enforce the commands if necessary. ("enforce" means to use whatever means necessary to get the dog to come, or to sit- none of this should be in a harsh manner, but simply tugging the dog to you on a leash, or pushing their butt into a sit.. in a matter of fact manner)

When the dog is sitting in front of the child, they should praise him and offer a treat.

The growling when their beds are approached is "territorial" guarding... this is actually fairly dangerous, as if the baby disregards the growls, the next step may be a nip- and you've already seen the psychological effects on the older boy from that.

If the children are visiting at feeding time (or anywhere close), letting the child do the feeding- with close, appropriate supervision- will help. Again, the dog must sit or lay down, and STAY, until the food is placed and they are released. This places the child in a position of dominance over the dog. At this time, they are acting more like the kids are undisciplined puppies (normal, but not desirable!)

At 7 years old, your Scotty isn't an "old" dog by any means, but he's settling into middle age, and changes are likely not welcomed- and there have been a LOT of changes, with a new home, etc. The dog is likely seeing the children as a threat in his 'new territory", which he's not completely secure in, yet.

A few other ideas- keep the dog's beds and feeding areas out of the main traffic areas of the house- we have a mudroom, where we can feed, and even confine our dogs, if necessary. This prevents some of the "territorial" guarding, which can extend to "strangers" walking towards them on their beds, or even by the food dishes- even if there isn't any food there at the time.

Rehoming should be the very last resort, but it *may* end up being necessary if your Scotty simply can't deal with children in the home. I'd try the above suggestions for at least a few months (confining the dogs to prevent problems when the kids are visiting) and see if there's any improvement.

Summerthyme