Renouncing citizenship.

[snewbie]

I was tossing and turning last night which is often when I do my best thinking, and some thoughts occurred to me.

What would happen if I renounced my citizenship? For the sake of this thread, I am going to leave expatriation off the table. We all have to ask government permission to leave anyways. A friend of mine is trying to get a passport to go to Canada and Alaska. He gave them the necessary documents, but then they sent him a letter asking for 5 more documents from his past such as school records, expired drivers licenses, childrens birth certificates, marriage/divorce papers, etc. He is still waiting to get permission to travel. So I am going to pretend I am a prisoner in this country for the sake of argument.

It's obvious to me that the vast majority of people on this planet are incapable of even understanding what freedom is, let alone embracing it. Just the other day 2 different people on my facebook page posted that they were pissed off because some people were endangering them and their children by not getting vaccinated. They think that since vaccines aren't 100% effective that everyone should be vaccinated so that an unvaccinated person wont give the disease to someone who's vaccine didn't work i.e. "herd immunity". Everyone agreed with them. I almost lost a friend by disagreeing.

It's obvious to me that now that we are owned by the government and the medical insurance companies, that they will issue an ultimatum. "Get the vaccine, come get tested, take this medicine prescribed or we will cancel your insurance." Then I will either be forced to pay for a product I cant use or I will pay the Obamacare penalty, or I will have my property stolen from me and possibly imprisoned or homeless. Remember when Mooshell said something to the effect of we will be taken out of our comfort zones and be forced to engage?

This puts the whole "path to citizenship" that the repubs, demos and libertarians love so much in a different light. They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their heart or even to get votes. They are doing it to get slaves. All the welfare and other freebies the illegals have been getting is like the free hit of crack the proverbial drug dealer gives to get you hooked. A smart illegal would realize he should stay illegal. Why be a citizen?

So again, what are the implications of renouncing citizenship? Social security/taxes? Firearms? Drivers licenses? Healthcare? Other stuff? Has anyone else given this any thought?

[dirtpig67]

You usually have to have citizenship in another country before you can renounce (not official policy although many US consulates will not accept your application unless you have another citizenship - probably due to informal agreements with other nations in which those particular consulates are located to not create stateless persons within their borders) and you have to be present in another country at a foreign US consulate/embassy to go through the process and submit the application. The State Dept has to accept your application and you have to pay a $400 fee. Just like your friend had to get permission to travel, you have to get permission to renounce.

You generally cannot renounce and continue to live in the US if that was what you were thinking.

[Blacknarwhal]

Particularly wealthy folks have been known to use the "citizen of the world' concept, particularly when they do a lot of traveling around. It works well for those who spend a lot of time on a boat or the like, I hear. But this is a vague concept at best, and will likely do little more than give you a direction to consider, then possibly laugh at and throw out.

[dhelman47]

Renunciation of citizenship

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Renunciation is the voluntary act of relinquishing one's citizenship or nationality. It is the opposite of naturalization whereby a person voluntarily acquires a citizenship, and distinct from denaturalization, where the loss of citizenship is forced by a state.


Historic practices

This section requires expansion. (May 2012) The common law doctrine of perpetual allegiance denied an individual the right to renounce obligations to his sovereign. The bonds of subjecthood were conceived in principle to be both singular and immutable. These practices held on in varying ways until the late 19th century.[1][2]
The refusal of many states to recognize expatriation became problematic for the United States, which had a large immigrant population. The War of 1812 was caused partly by Britain's impressment of British-born U.S. citizens into the British Royal Navy. Immigrants to the U.S. were sometimes held to the obligations of their foreign citizenship when they visited their home countries. In response, the U.S. government passed the Expatriation Act of 1868 and concluded various treaties, the Bancroft Treaties, recognizing the right to renounce one's citizenship.[3][4]
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights lists both the right to leave any country, including ones own (Article 13(2)) and the right to change ones nationality (Article 15(2)), which implicitly recognizes the right to renounce citizenship.
In modern law

Renunciation of citizenship is particularly relevant in cases of multiple citizenship, given that additional citizenships may be acquired automatically and may be undesirable. Many countries have pragmatic policies that recognize the often arbitrary nature of citizenship claims of other countries and negative consequences, such as loss of security clearance, can mostly be expected only for actively exercising foreign citizenship, for instance by obtaining a foreign passport. People from some countries renounce their citizenship to avoid compulsory military service. However, some people may wish to be free even of the purely theoretical obligations and appearance of dual loyalty that another citizenship implies. Even in countries that allow dual citizenship, such as Jamaica and Pakistan, electoral laws demand that politicians not be under an obligation of allegiance to any foreign country, and so when politicians have been found to be violating such laws, they stepped down and renounced their other citizenships in response to the public controversy.[5][6] Another example may be political refugees who would wish to renounce allegiance to the country from which they escaped.[citation needed]
Renunciation law in specific countries

Each country sets its own policies for formal renunciation of citizenship. There is a common concern that individuals about to relinquish their citizenship do not become a stateless person and many countries require evidence of another citizenship or an official promise to grant citizenship before they release that person from citizenship. Some countries may not allow or do not recognize renunciation of citizenship or establish administrative procedures that are essentially impossible to complete.
Mexico requires renunciation of all other citizenships as a condition of naturalization.[7] Canada and Israel, on the other hand, do not require the renunciation of other citizenships/nationalities as a precondition to running for public office.[8]
Renunciation of citizenship is most straightforward in those countries which recognize and strictly enforce a single citizenship. Thus, voluntary naturalization in another country is considered as "giving up" of one's previous citizenship or implicit renunciation. For practical reasons, such an automatic renunciation cannot officially take place until the authorities of the original country are informed about the naturalization. In Japan, a formal report is required from the renouncing person to be submitted at an embassy. Germany actively investigates whether its citizens living abroad have naturalized there when they apply for a passport; for instance in Canada, German passport applicants have to submit a search of citizenship record.[9] Canada and Australia are signatories to the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, and renunciation is possible only if it will not result in statelessness.[10][11] Applications for renunciation of citizenship need to be submitted in those countries with a waiting time of several months until approval.
Nigeria

The right to renounce Nigerian citizenship is established in § 29 of the 1999 Constitution of Nigeria, which states that "any citizen of Nigeria of full age who wishes to renounce his Nigerian citizenship shall make a declaration in the prescribed manner for the renunciation", which the government is obliged to register except when Nigeria is physically involved in a war or when the President of Nigeria is of the opinion that the renunciation is contrary to public policy. Under § 29(4)(a), a person of either gender becomes "of full age" at eighteen years, while under § 29(4)(b) a girl younger than that is still deemed to be "of full age" if she is married.[12]
In 2013, the Senate of Nigeria proposed a constitutional amendment to delete § 29(4)(b), which would have the effect that girls could only renounce Nigerian citizenship at the age of eighteen or older regardless of their marital status; the amendment passed by a vote of 75–14, two votes greater than the two-thirds supermajority required for the passage of constitutional amendments. However, after the vote, a point of order was raised against the amendment by Senate Deputy Minority Leader Ahmad Sani Yerima (ANPP-Zamfara), who stated that Schedule 2 of the Constitution prohibited the National Assembly of Nigeria from legislating on any matters relating to customary or Islamic law.[13] Some sources suggested that the amendment would have the effect of outlawing child marriage, a matter of personal concern to Yerima due to his 2009 marriage to an Egyptian girl then only 13 years old. Senate President David Mark was initially disinclined to permit a second vote on the matter, but relented after an argument. Yerima's arguments were sufficient to convince enough erstwhile supporters and non-voters to oppose the amendment; with a vote of 60–35, it was deprived of its supermajority and failed to pass.[14][15]
Singapore

Citizens of Singapore can only renounce Singaporean citizenship if they have acquired citizenship of another country. At the time of renunciation, renunciants must submit their Singaporean passports and National Registration Identity Cards for cancellation.[16] Male Singaporeans generally cannot renounce citizenship until completing national service, though there are exceptions for those who emigrated at a young age.[17] In 2012, a Hong Kong-born man who had acquired Singaporean citizenship by registration while a minor filed a lawsuit regarding this requirement.[18]
About 1,200 Singaporean citizens renounce their citizenship every year, a quarter of them naturalised citizens. Singapore does not permit multiple citizenship for adults.[19] The total number of renunciants from 2001 to 2011 was roughly 10,900. Of these, roughly half were Chinese Singaporeans (who comprise about three-quarters of the population), while the rest were of other races such as Malay or Indians (who comprise about one-quarter of the population).[20]
United States

See also: List of former United States citizens who relinquished their nationality
Overview

The United States requires that an individual go in person to a U.S. embassy or consulate outside the U.S. and sign before a consular officer an oath or affirmation that he intends to renounce his citizenship, although exceptions are legally permitted in times of war and under special circumstances.[21][22] During the expatriation procedure, the individual must complete several documents and demonstrate in an interview with a consular officer that the renunciation is voluntary and intentional. Depending on the embassy or consulate, the individual is often required to appear in person two times and conduct two separate interviews with consular officers over the course of several months.[23]
There were 235 renunciants in 2008,[24] between 731 and 743 in 2009, and about 1485 in 2010;[25][26] In 2011, there were 1781 renunciants.[27] Already in the first half of 2013, there were 1810 renunciants. [24][28][29]
Formal confirmation of the loss of U.S. citizenship is provided by the Certificate of Loss of Nationality and is received by the renunciant a number of months later. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established.[30] Although many countries require citizenship of another nation before allowing renunciation, the United States does not and an individual may legally renounce U.S. citizenship and become stateless. Nonetheless, the United States Department of State warns renunciants that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, they would become stateless and without the protection of any government.[31]
In one case, Vincent Cate, an encryption expert living in Anguilla, chose to renounce his US citizenship to avoid the possibility of violating US laws that may have prohibited US citizens from "exporting" encryption software.[32]
Taxation

The United States is the only country in the world which taxes nonresident citizens in the same manner as residents. Eritrea also taxes the foreign income of its nonresident citizens but at a much lower rate than for residents. Finland, France, Hungary, Italy and Spain tax their nonresident citizens as residents only in limited circumstances. Cuba, North Korea, the Philippines tax residents differently based on their citizenship, but do not tax the foreign income of nonresident citizens. Mexico, the Soviet Union, the Philippines, Vietnam and Myanmar also used to tax the foreign income of nonresident citizens, either in the same manner as residents or at lower rates, but have all abolished this practice.
In 1996, the U.S. changed its immigration law to include a provision to "name and shame" renunciants.[33] The Department of the Treasury became obligated to publish quarterly in the Federal Register the names of those citizens who renounce their citizenship. Only the names are published, but by counting the number of names in each list, media organizations are able to infer the number of renunciants each quarter. The 1996 law included a provision to bar entry to any individual "who officially renounces United States citizenship and who is determined by the Attorney General to have renounced United States citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxation by the United States."[33] There is no known case of this provision, known as the Reed Amendment, having ever been enforced.
In 2008, Congress enacted the Heroes Earnings Assistance and Relief Act that imposes a penalty—an "exit tax" or expatriation tax—on certain people who give up their U.S. citizenship or long-term permanent residence.[34] Effective June 2008, U.S. citizens who renounce their citizenship are subject under certain circumstances to an expatriation tax, which is meant to extract from the expatriate taxes that would have been paid had he remained a citizen: all property of a covered expatriate is deemed sold for its fair market value on the day before the expatriation date, which usually results in a capital gain, which is taxable income.[35] Eduardo Saverin, a Brazilian-born co-founder of Facebook, renounced his U.S. citizenship just before the company's expected initial public offering; the timing prompted media speculation that the act was motivated by potential U.S. tax obligations.[27]

[AUnut]

You have to have citizenship in another country before you can renounce (not official policy) and you generally have to be present in another country at a foreign US consulate/embassy to go through the process and submit the application. The State Dept has to accept your application and you have to pay a $400 fee. Just like your friend had to get permission to travel, you have to get permission to renounce.

You generally cannot renounce and continue to live in the US if that was what you were thinking.

Dirtpig, are you giving thought to it?

I have thought about it, and I am sure I will think more about it when I become an expat. I just do not see(yet) the ability....no, the willingness of the American people to stand up and protect the rights.....the same rights that they have forgotten over the last 50 years. Accordingly, I will do what I feel is best for MY family. One thing I know, the people that are giving up their Citizenship is increasing EXPONENTIALLY!

AUnut

[snewbie]

"Formal confirmation of the loss of U.S. citizenship is provided by the Certificate of Loss of Nationality and is received by the renunciant a number of months later. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established.[30] Although many countries require citizenship of another nation before allowing renunciation, the United States does not and an individual may legally renounce U.S. citizenship and become stateless. Nonetheless, the United States Department of State warns renunciants that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, they would become stateless and without the protection of any government.[31]"

Fascinating

[snewbie]

http://travel.state.gov/content/trav...tizenship.html

I have to be in a foreign country, and it may not change my tax status.

[dirtpig67]

Dirtpig, are you giving thought to it?

I have thought about it, and I am sure I will think more about it when I become an expat. I just do not see(yet) the ability....no, the willingness of the American people to stand up and protect the rights.....the same rights that they have forgotten over the last 50 years. Accordingly, I will do what I feel is best for MY family. One thing I know, the people that are giving up their Citizenship is increasing EXPONENTIALLY!

AUnut

I give thought to all options available to me which may be needed out of necessity or to make our lives better. At present moment, we are not planning to give it up as soon as we have dual citizenship, but are completely open to the idea if circumstances or events take place which require it or make it preferable. The way things are going, that may be something we are faced with seriously contemplating in the relatively near future.

We are currently counting the weeks down to when we can become dual citizens. Once we have that, the option is wide open to us.

If anyone is truly interested in the subject, this is an excellent resource which as a ton of personal and practical information on the topic:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/

[Miradus]

A friend of mine is trying to get a passport to go to Canada and Alaska. He gave them the necessary documents, but then they sent him a letter asking for 5 more documents from his past such as school records, expired drivers licenses, childrens birth certificates, marriage/divorce papers, etc. He is still waiting to get permission to travel.

Has your friend ever held a high security clearance?

My application for passport was denied three times because of a cryptography designation in my military file. I had to finally get a lawyer to draft a letter threatening to take the State Department to court over it before I was issued a passport. And then my passport was confiscated at the Mexican border and never returned to me.

After that I decided that I'd just make it so that eventually the government would BEG me to leave the country.

[snewbie]

No security clearance. When he asked why they wanted all the extra documentation, their reply was, "because we can".

It looks like the only truly free people in this country are the illegal aliens.