The Christian Passover

[sonofJAC]

I think the confusion in many peoples minds comes from what you have titled the "Christian Passover".

Perhaps, but that's what it is. Synonymously one could call it the New Testament Passover, but the actions of Jesus that night before He went out into the gardem clearly showed that He had to change the way the Passover was observed because animal sacrifices would no longer be needed for instruction or the foreshadowing of the Messiah. The Lamb of God was there and He would soon be sacrificed.

Although you may disagree, what you have described in the OP I would refer to as a variation on the traditional "Lord's Supper".

Or perhaps the "Lord's Supper" is a watered down version of what actually was practiced by the New Testament church. I mean you no offense in describing it as watered down, but the elements and certainly the specific day are certainly missing in most christian churches. I was there earlier in my life, I remember.

I don't actually have any objection to the memorial to the Lord that you detailed in the OP or, for that matter, the name "Christian Passover" that you wish to call it. But I think that Christians should understand that it is not the true Passover of the OT, which required the sacrifice and eating of a lamb, nor is it the Passover that many Jews celebrate today, which I believe that they do refer to as a meal. But most Jews will not eat roasted meat on Passover because it could be confused with the actual sacrifical meat.

And that is where many stumble over this day and it's meaning. But, this is not a Jewish day and one does not have to keep the "Jewish" tradition to understand it's meaning. It is an appointed time which has taken on the meaning of each successive event that has occurred on this day. First (at least from what we have recorded) Abraham kept this day and it showed on thing, then Israel (which included the Jews) kept it and it became known for another reason, now lastly we have the most important fulfillment of all: the death of the Messiah.

I'm sure you know but this memorial of the Lord's death is not called the Passover in the NT. It is simply referred to as the Lord's Supper. Maybe that was intentional to prevent any confusion.

I disagree. "The Lord's Supper" is only mentioned one time and it's not in a good light:
1Cor 11:20. When ye come together therefore into one place [to keep the Memorial], this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

It can be shown that Paul taught the Gentile churches to keep God's Holy Days and the Passover and Days of unleavened Bread are mentioned. Why would they be a point of reference for people who had never kept them if they weren't now keeping them after conversion?

I just asked a few people what the Lord's Supper is. No one even came close to mentioning it was the memorial of Christ's death. I think it was intentionally called that in order to counter the command to "keep the Lord's death 'till He come" (1 Cor 11:26) and substitute it with a day that celebrates "the resurrection" (on the wrong day) and when there was no command to commemorate the event at all.

Grace and Peace to you

[Forty9er]

I disagree. "The Lord's Supper" is only mentioned one time and it's not in a good light:

I disagree that Paul only calls it the Lord's Supper because he is critical of how the Corinthians are observing it. Here is what he says:

1Cor 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.

Paul tells them that they aren't eating the Lord's Supper so he is not using it as a derogatory term. What I call the Lord's Supper is also mentioned in at least three other verses:

Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

1Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1Cor 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

In these verses it is called the "breaking of bread", "communion", "the cup of the Lord", and "the Lord's table" but nowhere does the NT refer to it as Passover nor is it said or implied that it is only to be observed on Passover. In fact, it appears to have been observed regularly when Christians would meet together and I would even go as far as to say that the Lord commanded us to observe it regularly and not just on Passover:

1Cor 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
1Cor 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

The observance of the Lord's Supper wasn't just a remembrance of His death, it was intended to proclaim the Lord's death, and as such it would be a witness to the world.

It can be shown that Paul taught the Gentile churches to keep God's Holy Days and the Passover and Days of unleavened Bread are mentioned. Why would they be a point of reference for people who had never kept them if they weren't now keeping them after conversion?

This is where you and I strongly disagree. I don't want to derail this thread with a big discussion about this but I will make some brief comments.

I don't believe that Paul taught the churches to keep any of the feasts. There are many reasons for this but one of the main reasons is that all of the feasts in the OT required sacrifices and/or offerings. You have proposed a way to observe a "Christian Passover" without the need for an animal sacrifice and have based it on your interpretation of the Last Supper. But there is no similar Scriptural support for observing any of the other feasts in a similar manner without sacrifices and offerings.

[sonofJAC]

This is where you and I strongly disagree. I don't want to derail this thread with a big discussion about this but I will make some brief comments.

I don't believe that Paul taught the churches to keep any of the feasts. There are many reasons for this but one of the main reasons is that all of the feasts in the OT required sacrifices and/or offerings. You have proposed a way to observe a "Christian Passover" without the need for an animal sacrifice and have based it on your interpretation of the Last Supper. But there is no similar Scriptural support for observing any of the other feasts in a similar manner without sacrifices and offerings.

I debated continuing this divergence from the thread, however, I will explain that my intent in the three different threads in which I have posted is in hope that anyone seeking to find understanding in keeping the Feasts and Holy Days of God would at least have a spark to that understanding. Indeed there are many over the years on this very TOL forum who had been seeking that understanding and through various threads by various individuals, received that direction of which they sought. With Passover less than a few weeks away, I have presented meat in due season. It's not for everyone and I am not going to engage in fruitless debates. We should say our piece and then let it be as we did in the other thread. I will request from you however, the courtesy toward other people who are genuinely seeking knowledge, to let them ask their questions. I realize you don't agree with what I have put forth. It is obvious from your replies that you may not have grasped the meaning of the things presented. That's OK then, it wasn't meant for you. As I said before, we do have some common ground. Let us leave it as that and support each other in our seeking the face of our God. After all, Jesus said to His apostles when they complained that others apart from them were preaching in His name, "Leave them alone, those who are not against us, are for us" (Mark 9:38-40).

Grace and Peace to you

[Forty9er]

It's not for everyone and I am not going to engage in fruitless debates. We should say our piece and then let it be as we did in the other thread. I will request from you however, the courtesy toward other people who are genuinely seeking knowledge, to let them ask their questions.

I am all for courtesy and respect and, yes, people seeking knowledge should be free to ask questions without feeling like they will be attacked just for asking. But if you are confident that the ideas you present are Scripturally sound then you should welcome alternative views and respectful debate so that your ideas can be shown to have weathered the scrutiny. Or, alternately, if the ideas become ragged and thread bare by the scrutiny, then they may require you to reexamine them.

I realize you don't agree with what I have put forth. It is obvious from your replies that you may not have grasped the meaning of the things presented. That's OK then, it wasn't meant for you. As I said before, we do have some common ground. Let us leave it as that and support each other in our seeking the face of our God. After all, Jesus said to His apostles when they complained that others apart from them were preaching in His name, "Leave them alone, those who are not against us, are for us" (Mark 9:38-40).

I believe I have grasped the meaning of the things you presented. If you feel that I haven't, then I would kindly ask you to try to explain them to me again. But other than that, I agree.

Rom 14:19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

[1Ms. America]

In the backwoods of rural Mississippi, where does one find a Messianic Jew? LOL......I would love to, though. Oh, the things he could share!

Perhaps this will help a little.

http://www.messianicdirectory.info/c...ssissippi.html

[1Ms. America]

Here is a link to ElShaddai Ministries with pastor Mark Biltz, the man who got the whole blood moon thing going. They will be doing a passover sader live stream on April 2. The link takes you to the page where that's mentioned, but you'll have to scrolll down the page a bit to find it.

http://elshaddaiministries.us/upcoming_events.php

[Sherree]

Thank you, 1Ms. America.

[Forty9er]

sonofJAC,

Do you believe on the evening of the Last Supper that Christ actually ate a normal Passover meal, including the roasted sacrifical lamb and that it is just not mentioned in the Gospels?

[Sherree]

sonofJAC,

Do you believe on the evening of the Last Supper that Christ actually ate a normal Passover meal, including the roasted sacrifical lamb and that it is just not mentioned in the Gospels?

I'm curious about this as well. I would think that Jesus did eat the normal Passover meal. Why would He not?

Please overlook my ignorance while I try to understand....But aren't the Passover meal, the Lord's Supper, and the Last Supper all the same?

[Forty9er]

I'm curious about this as well. I would think that Jesus did eat the normal Passover meal. Why would He not?

Please overlook my ignorance while I try to understand....But aren't the Passover meal, the Lord's Supper, and the Last Supper all the same?

Well the Passover meal is defined in Exodus chapter 12:

Exod 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,

Exod 12:8 They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.

And I would assume that the meal the Lord ate the night he was betrayed, which is called the Last Supper, would be exactly as this is described (although this doesn't mention what they drank with the meal but we know the Lord and His disciples drank wine).

As sonofJAC has mentioned, what he refers to as the Christian Passover and I call the Lord's Supper is just the unleavened bread and the wine, in regard to what is consumed. So the Lord's Supper doesn't include the roasted sacrifical lamb or the bitter herbs. We know this from 1Corinthians:

1Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
1Cor 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
1Cor 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
1Cor 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.