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Thread: Can you trust the Bible?

  1. #171
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    2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
    2 Peter 1:21, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
    And then let me say that I trust God Almighty to supply me with His Holy Word.
    I did a lot of study on William Tyndale, and his version of the Word of God.
    After many years, I came to the conclusion that the completed Word of God, is the 1611 KJV.

    And God didn't create the denominations.

    A believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, is of the Common Faith.
    Titus 1:4, To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
    Proverbs 29:2, "...when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."

    Acts 4:12
    ,
    "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

    Hebrews 13:8
    , "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

    Revelation 3:11, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

    Matthew 28:20, "...I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

  2. #172
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    Hey Bezukhov,

    For those who may not know: Bezukhov and I were getting another thread off topic, and I am trying to move our part here.

    Originally Posted by CaryC
    It will probably derail the thread, but can you provide a scripture which was added by powerful men? Be nice to know which ones they were.




    Here's one for ya:

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    (1 John 5:7 KJV)


    The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8

    https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
    Hope that works out OK.

    @ first I didn't get the reference, or understand your meaning. I may now, understand it in part. The powerful people you imply, would be those who believe in the Trinity? Perhaps the leaders of the RCC?

    Soo let's take a look at that verse? As you stated:

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
    1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    From Gill:

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven,.... That is, that Jesus is the Son of God. The genuineness of this text has been called in question by some, (may I add Bezukhoz's name to the list?) because it is wanting in the Syriac version, as it also is in the Arabic and Ethiopic versions; and because the old Latin interpreter has it not; (that would be Vulgate who wrote the Latin Vulgate the original latin version used by the RCC) and it is not to be found in many Greek manuscripts; nor cited by many of the ancient fathers, even by such who wrote against the Arians, when it might have been of great service to them:

    to all which it may be replied, that as to the Syriac version, which is the most ancient, and of the greatest consequence, it is but a version, and a defective one. The history of the adulterous woman in the eighth of John, the second epistle of Peter, the second and third epistles of John, the epistle of Jude, and the book of the Revelations, were formerly wanting in it, till restored from Bishop Usher's copy by De Dieu and Dr. Pocock, and who also, from an eastern copy, has supplied this version with this text. As to the old Latin interpreter, it is certain it is to be seen in many Latin manuscripts of an early date, and stands in the Vulgate Latin edition of the London Polyglot Bible:(This must be the part where "powerful men" comes in @) and the Latin translation, which bears the name of Jerom, has it, and who, in an epistle of his to Eustochium, prefixed to his translation of these canonical epistles, complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters. And as to its being wanting in some Greek manuscripts, as the Alexandrian, (The Alexandrian Text were some texts found by Wescot and Hort in the late 1800's, many of which are faulty and not used in the KJV)and others,

    it need only be said, that it is to be found in many others; it is in an old British copy, and in the Complutensian edition, the compilers of which made use of various copies; and out of sixteen ancient copies of Robert Stephens's, nine of them had it: and as to its not being cited by some of the ancient fathers, this can be no sufficient proof of the spuriousness of it, since it might be in the original copy, though not in the copies used by them, through the carelessness or unfaithfulness of transcribers; or it might be in their copies, and yet not cited by them, they having Scriptures enough without it, to defend the doctrine of the Trinity, and the divinity of Christ: and yet, after all, certain it is,

    that it is cited by many of them; by Fulgentius (z), in the beginning of the "sixth" century, against the Arians, without any scruple or hesitation; and Jerom, as before observed, has it in his translation made in the latter end of the "fourth" century; and it is cited by Athanasius (a) about the year 350; and before him by Cyprian (b), in the middle, of the "third" century, about the year 250; and is referred to by Tertullian (c) about, the year 200; and which was within a "hundred" years, or little more, of the writing of the epistle; which may be enough to satisfy anyone of the genuineness of this passage;

    and besides, there never was any dispute about it till Erasmus left it out in the, first edition of his translation of the New Testament; (Erasmus's first edition was a hurried one for publication by a newspaper, he later went back and took his time to present another edition/translation of the New Testament which was far more accuate) and yet he himself, upon the credit of the old British copy before mentioned, put it into another edition of his translation. The heavenly witnesses of Christ's sonship are,
    First of all in Gill's Commentary that is all one paragraph. I tried to break it up some to make it easier to read, and that's all. I'm not a powerful person trying to add stuff to the Bible. LOL

    Added color for emphesis and (italics) for personal comments.

    So I don't really see a "powerful person" conspiracy theory at work at all. Since the verse has been quoted as is since the 200s. And then the apparent change to omit it as compared to adding, came in the early 1500s. Even though some works had omitted it in their works. And I might add, it is in our text today, even as you quoted it, so the apparent conspiracy theory was to omit it,and it didn't work.

    So do you have another "powerful Person" conspiracy theory verse so that we may evaluate it?
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  3. #173
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    Hey,

    Just wanted to add a bit of history to our thread.

    In referencing manuscripts a date of sorts ought to be provided.

    Concerning Syriac version: The oldest Syriac version only contained the Gospels which would not include I John much less add I John 5: 7,8.

    The Oldest most complete Syriac version dates to 5th and 6th centuries, some 300-400 years after I John 5: 7,8 were cited by some of the early forefathers.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  4. #174
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    Hey,

    Would like to add a comment.

    I just find it so odd, that folks will attribute great power to men to manipulate the Word of God and therefore hint at a feeble God, instead of attributing great power to a mighty God in His ability to maintain His Word (which btw He holds above His name) and recognize that man is feeble and unable to defeat the purposes of God.

    In case anyone wanted to know where that was at:

    Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  5. #175
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    I only wanted to point to some verse and show that there's some controversy.
    Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
    I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.

    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Gandalf the Grey

    People with ethics have little use for the state. Conversely, the state has little use for people with ethics.

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  6. #176
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    Hey,

    Quote Originally Posted by Bezukhov View Post
    I only wanted to point to some verse and show that there's some controversy.
    Come on, Bezukhov, there's controversy about the whole thing. But when something specific is brought up, as you did with I Jn, it is easily debunked. And most of these "controversies" are ages old, they just keep getting recycled as if they are new.



    Nothing new under the sun. Ecc.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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