What does it mean to follow the Messiah? Should Christians, "Jew" or "Gentile", keep

[dmatic]

I pray that we can discuss this without too much rancor.

As we all know, there is one path to 'salvation', which is through Jesus, The Messiah. There is not a separate path for "Jews" and another for "Gentiles". We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Gentiles and "not believing in Jesus" Gentiles. We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Jews, and "not believing in Jesus" Jews.

By acknowledging Jesus as The Messiah, The Son of God, it should be clear that "believers" should follow His teachings, otherwise He may ask: "Why do you call me Lord, but do not the things I say?"

One of the most egregious errors I see today is made by those who say "Moses' law" is only for the "Jews"; that "Christians" need not be concerned with following it; it's been fulfilled, therefore 'annulled' for "Christians".

What does Messiah say? He directly commands His followers not to think that God's Law, as given through Moses and the Prophets, is no longer in effect. (Matthew 5:17-19) Instead, He declares that even the very least of those commands, is still in effect and should be followed and taught....especially by those who claim to follow Him!

I think we should be encouraging one another to keep God's holy and righteous and perfect commandments. What say you?

[Forty9er]

As we all know, there is one path to 'salvation', which is through Jesus, The Messiah. There is not a separate path for "Jews" and another for "Gentiles". We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Gentiles and "not believing in Jesus" Gentiles. We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Jews, and "not believing in Jesus" Jews.

I think you may be assuming too much in this statement. Although I agree with it, I'm not convinced that everyone who is part of this discussion will agree. So I think we should get this out of the way first before we move on to the rest.

[Sherree]

As we all know, there is one path to 'salvation', which is through Jesus, The Messiah. There is not a separate path for "Jews" and another for "Gentiles". We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Gentiles and "not believing in Jesus" Gentiles. We also know that there are "believing in Jesus" Jews, and "not believing in Jesus" Jews.

In agreement here.

I think you may be assuming too much in this statement. Although I agree with it, I'm not convinced that everyone who is part of this discussion will agree. So I think we should get this out of the way first before we move on to the rest.

On this, I agree as well. I don't plan on being a part of the discussion, but am willing to hear what dmatic has to say on the subject.

[dmatic]

I think you may be assuming too much in this statement. Although I agree with it, I'm not convinced that everyone who is part of this discussion will agree. So I think we should get this out of the way first before we move on to the rest.

Are you typing about: the one path to salvation is through the Jewish Messiah?

Indeed, we do need to get any disagreement about that out of the way. I confess that I do not know where everyone, that may be a part of this discussion, is, concerning it's truth, so I will wait to see if anyone disagrees with it, then we can proceed. I did not mean to put anyone on the defensive, and I apologize if my assumption does. Please feel free to be honest, if any may disagree with my assumption.

The "Old Covenant", wherein God agreed to do His part and those covenanting with Him, agreed to do their parts, was broken and is no longer in effect. Thus, "salvation" (and we will need to define that term, later) cannot be achieved through its means.

Agreed?

[Forty9er]

Are you typing about: the one path to salvation is through the Jewish Messiah?

Yes, that is part of the issue I was talking about. I know that I have previously discussed that specific belief with others who are not in this forum.

Thus, "salvation" (and we will need to define that term, later) cannot be achieved through its means.

And this would be the other part of the issue. What do we mean by salvation? Were all of the children of Israel in the OT "saved" because they were a part of the nation that God redeemed out of Egypt and with whom He entered into a covenant agreement?

[LittleFish]

My 2-cents -- and like the OP, not looking for any rancor. Just saying my part.

Right after Matthew 5:17-19 comes the rest of the chapter where Jesus gives us examples from the Law and the new standard of the Kingdom.

He sets the stage in v. 20 with, "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The scribes and Pharisees certainly kept the letter of the law, yet that is not enough for the Kingdom.

He then goes on to give us examples, showing how high the minimum standard of the Kingdom is compared to the 'letter' of the Law:

• Do not commit adultery? Do not lust.
• Do not murder? Do not hate.
• Do not make a false oath? Make no oath at all.
• An eye for an eye? Not so much.
• Love your neighbor? Love your enemy.

And, going to the 3rd and 4th chapters of the letter to the Hebrews:

• Rest on the seventh day from all physical work? Rest forever in Christ from all works toward salvation.

There is a difference between the day in which Christ taught and the Kingdom age we live in today. They were under the Law firmly, as a taskmaster; we have it as a teacher. They were looking toward an earthly salvation; Christ brought something much, much better (wow, what an understatement!).

This is why some people accuse Paul of teaching a different Gospel -- they don't fully comprehend the magnificent, words-cannot-describe difference Christ's atonement made in absolutely everything, everywhere (all realms), for all time, and in one moment. Black and white, day and night, up and down pale in comparison to the difference between then and now and it happened so fast your head would spin if you could see it.

The Law was not enough. Christ fulfills it, completes it, gives life to it so that it can be kept sufficiently by those keeping it that they may be granted membership in of the Kingdom through His righteousness alone.

In His atonement we find salvation and reconciliation with the Father, and Father seals/amplifies our bond with Him by gifting us with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells us, writing His Law -- in Kingdom standards -- on our hearts, minds, and wills, the nearer we draw to Him.

And we obtain that nearing/nearness through communion with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (through prayer, the Word, worship, praise, obedience, etc.) and in fellowship with and service to one another. Living in Him, by Him, and through Him more and more each and every day until our glorification in Him is completed.

Thus even today the key tenets of the law -- love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul, and your neighbor as yourself -- are fully kept, obeyed, and honored by those who are in Christ Jesus.

Again, JMHO

[Forty9er]

Some good comments LittleFish! When I look at Christ's Sermon on the Mount I see the law on steroids and then think, like the disciples, who then can be saved? And the answer, of course, is that the law shows us our inadequacy and our inability to meet its standards and rather than save us it becomes our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ so that we might be justified by faith.

[dmatic]

Yes, that is part of the issue I was talking about. I know that I have previously discussed that specific belief with others who are not in this forum.



And this would be the other part of the issue. What do we mean by salvation? Were all of the children of Israel in the OT "saved" because they were a part of the nation that God redeemed out of Egypt and with whom He entered into a covenant agreement?

To the first part of this quote from you, forty9er, I cannot speak, yet I will ask 'them' a question; if, indeed, they appear.

I picture 'salvation' as being made whole, healed from the ravages of sin, which ultimately leads to death. the soul that sins shall die. Being presented before the Father blameless and, (might I throw in this one?) perfect.

Sin is still defined as transgressing the Law of God. The Messiah, Jesus, came to set us free from sin, and from sinning! He magnified the Law and preached it more fully, deeper penetrating, so to speak, to root out of us iniquity, that attitude within our deceitful hearts that would allow us to transgress His perfect and holy Word, His commands.

your question about were all the children of Israel "saved"? is a good one. It could be said that all that believed in the Passover lamb "idea" and applied the blood to their doorposts and lintels were "saved" from the death angel, and were subsequently "saved" out of Egypt. But, not many (only two of accountable age) actually made it all the way to the "Promised Land".

I think the three main Feasts of The LORD prophesy of our individual journeys of salvation. We need to all believe in the sacrifice of The Passover Lamb, and apply His blood to our hearts, (where we live) and are Justified because of His sacrifice. Baptism is followed by Pentecost where we learn the Law of God and begin our Sanctification process, followed by Tabernacles, which some have termed our Glorification.

Complete salvation, where we finally cross over into His Promised land is a process.

[dmatic]

My 2-cents -- and like the OP, not looking for any rancor. Just saying my part.

Right after Matthew 5:17-19 comes the rest of the chapter where Jesus gives us examples from the Law and the new standard of the Kingdom.

He sets the stage in v. 20 with, "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The scribes and Pharisees certainly kept the letter of the law, yet that is not enough for the Kingdom.
...

And a fine two cents it is,LittleFish! The verse you quoted must have been a shocker for those in the crowd, listening to Jesus. Exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees? Impossible, they must have thought. But, with God, all things are possible.

I'm not sure the Pharisees were even keeping the letter of the Law, however. They probably were convinced they were, but one of the tenets of the Law is not to add, nor subtract from God's instruction, and according to Jesus, they were doing just that. Hence, inserting the 'traditions of men', and teaching man's commandments, while making God's of none effect.

To the problem of sin, or transgressing the Law. Jesus certainly did pay our debt for our sins, but not so that we could keep on sinning. We are to "abide" in Him, but He said: the one who sins will not remain in the house (abode?) for ever. Our attitudes that somehow allow us to transgress must be dealt with. And deal with them He will!

You are so right when you say: "In His atonement we find salvation and reconciliation with the Father, and Father seals/amplifies our bond with Him by gifting us with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells us, writing His Law -- in Kingdom standards -- on our hearts, minds, and wills, the nearer we draw to Him.

And we obtain that nearing/nearness through communion with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (through prayer, the Word, worship, praise, obedience, etc.) and in fellowship with and service to one another. Living in Him, by Him, and through Him more and more each and every day until our glorification in Him is completed.

Thus even today the key tenets of the law -- love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, body and soul, and your neighbor as yourself -- are fully kept, obeyed, and honored by those who are in Christ Jesus."

Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God. I'll close with the following words from Peter, recorded in Acts 3:19-26 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the LORD; And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouths of all His holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you from his iniquities."

A wonderful blessing indeed. May His will be done and May His Kingdom come!

[Wiskey Reb]

I'll just start out my participation in this thread by stating that I AM IN AGREEMENT with all that Jesus says about himself and salvation, but perhaps not in a fashion that is to everyone here's satisfaction. Like I always tell everyone else about potentially controversial things, 'it's in there....I have to deal with it'. But I do recognize and try to calculate in all that Jesus has to say about it, such as Matthew 12:32, which states "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

"

To me, this neither means that all Jews will be saved, nor that none will, nor does it prohibit that some may be given opportunity to repent of not recognizing him in messiah's second coming. And, neither do I believe that all "Christians" will be saved, nor that none will. I know that there are a plethora of verses to banter about in this regard. But, regarding myself, I need a messiah, and have found as much in the Jewish Yeshua (G-d's salvation), Jesus Christ (Yeshua hamashiac) come in the flesh .