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Thread: What does it mean to follow the Messiah? Should Christians, "Jew" or "Gentile", keep

  1. #111
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    Which brings us back to the thread's 'theme'. If Jesus was making in Himself, One new man, by removing the dividing wall that created "baseless hatred" between "Jew" and "Gentile", why then does it seem to be still in place in the minds of many? Since we are all 'one' in Christ Jesus, or are supposed to be, why does hostility still remain? Jesus, of course, taught love. Even, love for 'enemies'. Forgive me, forty9er, but it has seemed that you consider me an enemy. I wish it were not so, but I understand your skepticism, as you seem to think I am perverting the gospel that you have come to accept. I can appreciate that skepticism, because we are warned by the Messiah Himself, to beware and see that we are not deceived. For many have 'come in His Name' saying that He is the Christ, but have deceived many. This contending for the true faith can often seem to produce 'enemies', but I trust that the Messiah will straighten us out, eventually. We often appear as 'crooked branches', but I harbor no ill will toward you, that I am aware of. I have appreciated your sharp iron used to help me grow, too. Someday, I hope, we will all come into the unity of the truth, that is prophesied. May God's will be done and may His Kingdom come!

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    So, what does Gal. 3:10ff say?: "For as many as are of the "works of the law" (those things prescribed by the law for seeking 'justification', namely, the blood of bulls, etc.) are under the curse (those penalties for disobeying the Law):
    First, let's clear something up. What are the "works of the Law"? You seem to be saying that works are somehow restricted to only the sacrifices from the Law but that definition of works is only from your imagination because it is completely unsupported by Scripture. Strong's defines the Greek word translated as "works" to mean "an act:—deed, doing, labour, work" and there is no implication that it should be restricted in any way to just sacrifices, even when it is used in regard to the Law. So the works of the Law are everything that is done to meet the requirements of the Law, not just the sacrifices but observing the Sabbath and the feasts, eating only the prescribed foods, and doing all of the other commandments required by the Law. And the rest of the verse that you quote is a perfect example:

    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    for it is written, Cursed s every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the law to do them.
    The curse doesn't come because a person isn't generally following the Law, but the curse comes from not perfectly doing everything EVERYTHING that the Law requires, each and every commandment. Do you follow everything in the Law perfectly? Do you want to be under the curse or do you want to trust Christ who met all the demands of the Law perfectly and who will give you the righteousness that comes by faith and not by works?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    And the law is not of faith, but the man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Read that verse over several times and let the truth that it reveals sink in. The Law is NOT OF FAITH! Without faith it is impossible to please God. Anyone who is trying to follow the Law with the idea that by doing those things they will gain God's favor, then they are trusting in their own works and not trusting God.

    And the second part of the verse says "the man who does them will live by them". I have the feeling that you believe this phrase supports your view that Christians should be following the Law because it says that the man who does the things in the Law will live in them, as though doing the things required by the Law gives life. But what it is actually saying is that just like the curse, unless a person does everything required by the Law perfectly, it will not impart any life. And the confirmation of this comes in the following verse:

    Gal 3:21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
    There is no law that has been given that can give life.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us....wherefore then serveth the law (of sacrifices for 'justification)? It was added because of transgressions (for disobedience to the Law)..."
    Didn't you leave out a KEY part of that verse? I wonder why you would leave it out? But here is the complete verse:

    Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
    It actually says that the Law of Moses was in effect "until" the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made. And we know from verse 16 that the offspring referred to is Christ. So there is a tremendous change that occurs at the cross and the rule of the Law ends there.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    First, I note the word 'handwriting', used once in the New Testament. Who wrote these handwritten ordinances? Quite possibly the 'interpreters of the law'. Second, the word 'ordinances', itself. 1378 in Strong's...dogma...primarily denoting an opinion, or judgment; hence an opinion expressed with 'authority'. Quite possibly another tradition of man, in other words.
    I don't know where you have gotten "dogma" from Strong's definition. Here is the complete definition of that word from Strong's:

    Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)):—handwriting.
    It doesn't say "dogma" but it does say "something hand written". Let me show you what I think this is a clear reference to:

    2Cor 3:6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
    2Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end,
    2Cor 3:8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
    2Cor 3:9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
    Verse 7 talks about the ministry of death which was carved in letters on stone. Can there be any question that this is a reference to the 10 commandments which God Himself with His own hand carved in letters on the two tablets? I think this is what the "handwriting in ordinances" from Col 2:14 refers to. The 10 commandments were the first part of the Law given by God Himself and as such it represented all of the Law. That is what was nailed to the cross.

    Also notice what the above verses from 2 Corinthians are saying. The Old Covenant, the Law, was of "the letter" which kills while the New Covenant is of "the Spirit" which gives life. The Law could never give life. Only the New Covenant, by the Spirit, gives life. And verse 7 says that the Old Covenant, represented by the 10 commandments, which came with glory, was being brought to an end. Don't think for a minute that the reference to the thing that was being brought to an end was the glory on Moses' face. It was the Law, the ministry of condemnation, that was being brought to an end.

    It is the Law that is called the ministry of death and the ministry of condemnation because it could never impart life, all that it could do was condemn because cursed is everyone who doesn't "continue in ALL things that are written in the book of the law".

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    Forgive me, forty9er, but it has seemed that you consider me an enemy.
    Absolutely not! But I would say as Paul said to the Galatians who opposed what he was saying:

    Gal 4:16 So then, have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
    I consider you to be a brother in Christ but as a brother I shouldn't draw back from telling you the truth and trying to correct you when you promote false doctrines.

    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    I wish it were not so, but I understand your skepticism, as you seem to think I am perverting the gospel that you have come to accept. I can appreciate that skepticism, because we are warned by the Messiah Himself, to beware and see that we are not deceived. For many have 'come in His Name' saying that He is the Christ, but have deceived many. This contending for the true faith can often seem to produce 'enemies', but I trust that the Messiah will straighten us out, eventually. We often appear as 'crooked branches', but I harbor no ill will toward you, that I am aware of. I have appreciated your sharp iron used to help me grow, too. Someday, I hope, we will all come into the unity of the truth, that is prophesied. May God's will be done and may His Kingdom come!
    I have to believe that we have more in common that in what we disagree on.

  4. #114
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    Thank you forty9er. God bless you.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    Thank you forty9er. God bless you.
    Thank you for being polite and for not allowing this to become personal. And thank you for starting to directly confront the issues I raise.

    If you want to respond to my last large post, go ahead but I will try to finally end this discussion after that. I think there is plenty of food for thought in this thread for anyone who wants to study these issues on their own.

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