The Feet of Iron and Clay

[Forty9er]

I used to go along with the interpretation of the 4th kingdom being Rome and the iron and clay being Europe / US or western and eastern church...


but... as time has gone on I see Islam being the 4th kingdom, not Roma and the iron and clay being Islam and possible the mixing with Christianity via our modern Christian and Catholic church

read.... http://therightscoop.com/why-the-iro...-roman-empire/

Thanks for your input Navajo. I think the Islamic countries in the Middle East are playing and will play an important role in end times prophecy. For example, you can find references to Edom, Egypt, and Libya in several prophecies. But what I don't see is a clear reference to Islam as a religion or as some type of unified kingdom.

And in regard to Islam being the fourth kingdom of Iron in the prophecy of Daniel 2, I think that interpretation has several problems. First, if the image from the vision shows the Babylonian, Persian, and Greek kingdoms just prior to the iron kingdom of the legs, where is the Roman Empire? Is it so insignificant that it can be completely ignored?

And second, your linked article claims that Islam conquered all of the previous kingdoms and since Rome never conquered all of the territory occupied by either the Persian or Greek empires, it can't be the iron kingdom. But neither did Islam conquer all of the territory that Rome controlled. Although Islam made significant progress in the Iberian Peninsula they never controlled most of continental Europe or England. And the Roman Empire directly succeeds the Greek Empire of Alexander. By the time Mohammad was born the empire that Alexander ruled was something that only the historians would know about. So how can Islam be said to crush and break the previous Greek kingdom?

Also, it is important to remember that Bible prophecy is generally given relative to the land of Israel. When it talks about something from the north or the south, it means north or south of Israel. The same kind of thing applies to the kingdoms that are mentioned - they are the kingdoms that controlled the land of Israel at that time and have little to do with the extent of their control in distant lands.

[CaryC]

Sorry Navajo, I'm with Forty9er on this one. No disrespect intended.

There is one point on which I do see a slight difference.

But what I don't see is a clear reference to Islam as a religion or as some type of unified kingdom.

Other than Magog, a possible unifying factor in the Eze. 38-9 nations could be Islam, and the hatred of Israel. I think it odd that Turkey, ISIS, and Iran are in competing scenario's to form an Islamic caliphate. Also odd is that Saudi Arabia (Sheba and Dedan) are not, they already seem to be on the side line.

Just to show my personal reasoning for my backing Rome and not an Islamic caliphate as the fourth kingdom, which Forty9er disagrees with, and that's fine is:

I see Eze. 38-9 as happening before or near, although in front of the 7 year Trib. If that is correct, then the Islamic caliphate will be wiped out. If a restored Roman Empire is actually the fourth Empire it could develop in the western countries, including the US, Brazil, Mexico, etc... along side the development of the Islamic caliphate, but with the destruction of the caliphate in 38-9 it would end that hope.

That's not to say there would be no more Islam. There would. Saudi Arabia, and those living in western lands (Europe, US, Indonesia) would probably still continue, and still maintain their separateness. It's just the hope and glory of an Empire would vanish.

Just to continue my filibustering: I can see where after that, the leader of the "free" world would tell Israel, we see God fought for you, and we recognize your right to exist, and your right to the land. The land God gave Abraham. Confirming the covenant.

I know lots of very intelligent people disagree with that, and that's fine. It's just my POV.

O, and Forty9er I noticed your last post was after 10 o'clock. You're having way to much fun. You're a part of the baby boomer generation, and need you're rest. Suggest trying to get in bed by 9. We stayed up till 9:30 watching the super bowl, and almost fell asleep on the way in. Take care of yourself, we love having you on here.

[Forty9er]

There is one point on which I do see a slight difference.



Other than Magog, a possible unifying factor in the Eze. 38-9 nations could be Islam, and the hatred of Israel.

There is probably no doubt that that the Islamic hatred of Israel is something that motivates Persia, Cush, and Put to be part of the alliance against Israel. And if the meaning of Magog was restricted to Turkey alone, then that would even further support that argument.

But that idea would be hard to maintain given that Gog is said to be the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and that Gomer and all of his hordes are included, coming from the "uttermost parts of the north".

Just to show my personal reasoning for my backing Rome and not an Islamic caliphate as the fourth kingdom, which Forty9er disagrees with, and that's fine is:

I see Eze. 38-9 as happening before or near, although in front of the 7 year Trib.

I think I will only disagree with it mildly and will say that I can't rule out that possibility. There is the possibility that the references to the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation) in Eze 38-39 only link that invasion with the Tribulation because it is a necessary, but preliminary event which leads the world into the 7 years of tribulation.

O, and Forty9er I noticed your last post was after 10 o'clock. You're having way to much fun. You're a part of the baby boomer generation, and need you're rest. Suggest trying to get in bed by 9. We stayed up till 9:30 watching the super bowl, and almost fell asleep on the way in. Take care of yourself, we love having you on here.

You know, when you get older you need to keep your mind active or it will atrophy and no one wants that to happen to them. I think if I tried to go to bed at 9 I would be up again by 10 and then would be awake until 2 AM. And don't remind me of the super bowl (the cheaters win again).

[CaryC]

I see you finally got up LOL.

I don't see why not? I have to? It's one way to keep the water pipes from freezing. LOL

Anyway as a side note: Do you think.....no wait....ITS the OP......that even though Dan 2 just mentions 2 items clay/iron, there could be more than 2 reasons they don't .....mingle? For instance Populism vs globalism vs Islam vs Christianity vs whatever? In a generic sort of way?

Or it's actually referring to a specific (2) objects in like verse 43 (just so you don't have to run and get your Bible) seems to be saying:

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Just wondering about your thoughts or even anyone else LF etc.

[Forty9er]

Anyway as a side note: Do you think.....no wait....ITS the OP......that even though Dan 2 just mentions 2 items clay/iron, there could be more than 2 reasons they don't .....mingle? For instance Populism vs globalism vs Islam vs Christianity vs whatever? In a generic sort of way?

Or it's actually referring to a specific (2) objects in like verse 43 (just so you don't have to run and get your Bible) seems to be saying:

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men; but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Yes, I think there could be more reasons why the iron and clay don't mix and maybe I haven't properly identified the reasons. But I'm not convinced that we can just include anything that could possibly divide people. The verses seem to indicate specific, fundamental reasons for the division and really, they aren't so much reasons as they are characteristics of the two materials which are in opposition. So let's take a look at this issue in a little more detail.

The first thing I think we should look at is the iron, which exclusively makes up the legs of the image and is one of the two materials which make up the feet and toes. In verse 40 we are told that the fourth kingdom will be as strong as iron and just as iron breaks and subdues everything so this kingdom will do the same thing. So the iron part of the mixture in the feet must relate directly in some way to this strength and power to dominate and force its will on others, just as Rome did to all who opposed her.

So could Islam meet this criteria? Maybe, in terms of it's desire and intentions but I really don't see it being the strong component of any kingdom today. For the most part countries which are majority Islamic are not strong but are weak and are backward culturally and militarily and are filled with conflict even among themselves. Their use of terror is not a sign of strength but of weakness. Maybe when Islam was at the height of its power it could meet the criteria but not today.

Although I won't comment on the other possibilities, whatever else we want to propose to represent the iron today I think must meet these kinds of criteria.

And the clay which makes up the other component, can either be plastic and moldable, or when baked can become hard, but also somewhat brittle. So it seems to be able to take on different characteristics at different times. But we are told that the clay does not mix with the iron so it seems that the two are in some way opposed to each other and may be fundamentally different.

Verse 43 which you quote is an interesting verse and I'm not exactly sure how it should be interpreted. The KJV says that "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men" and the ESV translates it as "they will mix with one another in marriage" and that seems to be referring to the mixing or interaction between the two. But I think I would do better to let you tackle that one.

[CaryC]

I agree with you on the iron part.

Humm I wonder if it might refer to the (dark) power behind the Roman Empire. In the same way as the power (prince) behind the Persians who withstood Dan. answer to prayer.

Those leaders of Rome where some real whack jobs, on the one side skilled in building and war, and on the other insane, and murderous.