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Thread: Restitution of all things.....

  1. #1
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    Default Restitution of all things.....

    Hey,

    In a thread in the COC located here:http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...at-Without-God

    The conversation kind of devolved in the last couple of pages into a discussion for, and against, universalism.

    I presented my side (against) with some help from Forty9er, by quoting some things about the lake of fire and that the Bible stated that it was forever, and ever. Ya know like forever. (Rev. 20)

    Then dmatic (for) instead of responding with his opinion on the lake of fire and that it was for ever and ever, changed the subject. Or rather instead of dealing with the term for ever and ever, pointed at another word and said we should study it.

    Now, I want to type Acts 3:17ff; Peter talking to the 'crowd': "And now brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers. A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you."

    We will need to do a study of what that word 'restitution' means. And what the holy prophets have spoken. Until then, peace....
    So here we go:

    Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

    Restitution
    RESTITU'TION, n. [L. restitutio.]
    1. The act of returning or restoring to a person some thing or right of which he has been unjustly deprived; as the restitution of ancient rights to the crown.
    Restitution is made by restoring a specific thing taken away or lost.
    2. The act of making good, or of giving an equivalent for any loss, damage or injury; indemnification.
    He restitution to the value makes.
    3. The act of recovering a former state or posture. [Unusual.]
    Restitution of all things, the putting the world in a holy and happy state. Acts 3.
    IMHO to understand the phrase of "restitution of all things" we need to understand 3 things: 1) What was it like in the beginning 2) what is it like now 3) How does it get back to that original

    In the simplest statement to answer No. 1, IMHO the original condition was: A holy state. Man was holy, the world was not under a curse, and God walked in the garden in the cool of the evening among, and with, His Holy Creation.

    To answer the No. 2. The original condition became corrupted, it fell, became unholy. Man and creation came under a curse and thus separated from God.

    I really don't think there is a problem with either of those in our discussion. It's the third one that causes problems, or lengthy discussions.

    No. 3 how does it get back to the original? "Restitution of all things" How does it get back to being holy?

    I think there are 2 ways. One is by cutting the ungodliness out. Based in general on ....if thine eye offend thee cut it out..... Elijah and the 400 prophets of Baal, and some others places. Which in my opinion would include separation from the Holy (background Haggai 2: 10-13)

    And in this case would require the lake of fire, a cutting out, and separation to last forever, and ever for those who don't repent in this life time.

    OR

    A cleansing, by the blood of the Lamb, by those who do repent in this life time.

    The argument may go to repentance in a post life time, as in reincarnation, or Purgatory, or universalism and on that we shall see.

    However for the restitution of all things topic there are 2 ways to accomplish that, as noted above.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    Good post, Cary. As dmatic so often does, he assumes a much more expansive view of a word or phrase than what was intended in the Biblical text. You have concentrated on the "restitution" part but I would like to take a look at the meaning of "all things".

    Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word which is translated as "all things" in Acts 3:21:

    all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
    As you can see from the definition it essentially means "all" but does that mean that every time the word is used it must imply absolutely everything, as in the entire universe? As with many definitions, it doesn't always imply an absolute but can be limited in its meaning and is often limited by its context. For example, in the following verses the same word is used:

    1John 2:20 But you have an unction from the Holy One, and you know all things.
    Does that verse mean that everyone who is indwelled by the Holy Spirit knows absolutely everything, even everything that God knows? No, it obviously means that the Holy Spirit supplies us with everything we need to know, especially spiritual things.

    2Cor 6:10 As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
    Did Paul mean that he actually possessed everything that exists?

    So we can see that "all things" doesn't always imply everything in the universe. So what does the "all things" mean in Acts 3:21?

    Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    The first thing to note is that the "all things" are qualified by the verse. They are what was spoken by the prophets, and from Mark 9:12 we know that it is mainly talking about what is mentioned in Mal 4:5-6 regarding the coming of "Elijah":

    Mal 4:5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
    Mal 4:6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”
    These verses are talking about the Day of the Lord, which includes the Great Tribulation and the millennial reign of Christ which follows His second coming. So the restitution, or restoration, of all things means the judgment of the wicked, the saving of "all Israel" and the millennial kingdom of Christ when Israel will be restored to their land and blessed by God. It does NOT mean or imply that in the end everyone will be saved. And that fact can clearly be seen in the verses just prior to Mal 4:5-6:

    Mal 4:1 ​“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
    Mal 4:2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall.
    Mal 4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.
    The wicked becoming burnt stubble without root or branches and becoming ashes cannot be talking about universal salvation.

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    Hey Forty9er,

    It's cool. My post was just to sort of kick it off, and get started.

    So ya think "all things" doesn't actually mean all things? Yeah, I get it.

    Just taking that verse by itself, no context as to chapter, book etc. I felt like "all things" meant all the things the prophets had spoken of. Like all the prophecies that they spoke would be fulfilled. And that Jesus would reside in heaven at the right hand of God until those things actually happened.

    I'm fumbling around with my thoughts, but like if the prophets foretold that Israel would return to their land, then they would before Jesus returned. To just name one.

    Am I missing it?
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    I'm fumbling around with my thoughts, but like if the prophets foretold that Israel would return to their land, then they would before Jesus returned. To just name one.

    Am I missing it?
    No, you aren't missing it. Although the Greek word is translated as "restitution" in the KJV of Acts 3:21, it means the same thing as "restoration". And that is the word that is used by Christ in Matthew and Mark when He is talking about the same thing:

    Matt 17:11 He answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.
    Mark 9:12 And he said to them, “Elijah does come first to restore all things. And how is it written of the Son of Man that he should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?
    And this restoration is what Christ is asked about just before He ascended:

    Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
    As I have mentioned before, this is a major topic of prophecy in the OT and something that Israel had been waiting and longing for and even Christ's disciples were expecting it to happen soon. Here are some other OT verses which talk about it:

    Jer 30:17 ​​​​​​​​For I will restore health to you, ​​​​​​​and your wounds I will heal, ​​​​​​​declares the LORD, ​​​​​​​because they have called you an outcast: ​​​​​​​‘It is Zion, for whom no one cares!’ ​​​
    Jer 30:18 ​​​​​​​​“Thus says the LORD: ​​​​​​​Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob ​​​​​​​and have compassion on his dwellings; ​​​​​​​the city shall be rebuilt on its mound, ​​​​​​​and the palace shall stand where it used to be. ​​​
    Joel 2:25 ​​​​​​​​I will restore to you the years ​​​​​​​that the swarming locust has eaten, ​​​​​​​the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, ​​​​​​​my great army, which I sent among you. ​​​
    Joel 2:26 ​​​​​​​​“You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, ​​​​​​​and praise the name of the LORD your God, ​​​​​​​who has dealt wondrously with you. ​​​​​​​And my people shall never again be put to shame. ​​​
    That is what is meant by the "restitution of all things". It in no way implies that everyone will be saved. That idea only comes from dmatic's imagination, not from Scripture.

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    Thanks Forty9er,

    Appreciate the input.

    It in no way implies that everyone will be saved.
    Just lightly reading over the verse, in no way, in my mind, establishes that in the text.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    I presented my side (against) with some help from Forty9er, by quoting some things about the lake of fire and that the Bible stated that it was forever, and ever. Ya know like forever. (Rev. 20)

    Then dmatic (for) instead of responding with his opinion on the lake of fire and that it was for ever and ever, changed the subject. Or rather instead of dealing with the term for ever and ever, pointed at another word and said we should study it.
    Thanks, Cary, for starting this thread. I have been busy so have not had time to respond. There are a couple of references in this thread referring to me not answering or trying to ignore something, so I will try to address that concern first, before responding to the topic of this thread. In past discussions with forty9er and others the terms "forever and ever" had been discussed. Have you investigated the meanings of aion, aionian, and aionios in the Greek? These words do not always mean what the English translators imply, though many assume they do. There are examples of God using the Hebrew equivalent, olam, translated as 'forever' by the English translators, when it is clear that that is not what God meant. "Forever" is a time, not defined in length, but not endless, though some still hold that it may mean endless. Aionios is an adjective that may define what is happening in that "age", or aion. We have terms that more closely fit what is being described, like the stone 'age', the dark 'ages', the industrial 'age', etc. which describe what is going on in that 'aion'.

    Regarding the lake of fire and the one time it mentions, in Rev. 20, the term forever and ever it says in verse 10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Then verse 14 and 15 say "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." One thing I'll ask you to note is that it doesn't include the term for ever and ever there.

    So, what is this "lake of fire"? This 'second death'? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Depends. Is there resurrection from the second death? Or, does this second death reign supreme? What is the last enemy to be destroyed? It is death, according to Paul, I think in 1 Cor. 15. Does this include the second death, too? If not, why not?

    The book of Daniel describes God in the midst of His fiery throne, from which flows a river of fire. Sometimes, a 'lake' is formed by receiving the flow of a river. Our God is a consuming fire. His will, will be done. What is the purpose of God forming a lake of fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic
    Thanks, Cary, for starting this thread. I have been busy so have not had time to respond. There are a couple of references in this thread referring to me not answering or trying to ignore something, so I will try to address that concern first, before responding to the topic of this thread. In past discussions with forty9er and others the terms "forever and ever" had been discussed. Have you investigated the meanings of aion, aionian, and aionios in the Greek? These words do not always mean what the English translators imply, though many assume they do. There are examples of God using the Hebrew equivalent, olam, translated as 'forever' by the English translators, when it is clear that that is not what God meant. "Forever" is a time, not defined in length, but not endless, though some still hold that it may mean endless. Aionios is an adjective that may define what is happening in that "age", or aion. We have terms that more closely fit what is being described, like the stone 'age', the dark 'ages', the industrial 'age', etc. which describe what is going on in that 'aion'.
    So since the same word is used in the lake of fire description of forever, and in terms used of God's duration, they both will have an end. Really, is that what you are saying, God's time, God's duration, the kingdom of Jesus will have an end? Since the word aion appears in both places. You can do a search of G165.

    I might add you didn't answer the question in the other thread either because I quoted several verses in the other thread, as the sentence above, that you didn't reply to there (post #45) and haven't replied to here either. And I made the same case over there. What you have put up here isn't a reply. And if you need me to I can put up those verses again. After all I am the copy and paste king.

    And this:

    So, what is this "lake of fire"? This 'second death'? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Depends. Is there resurrection from the second death? Or, does this second death reign supreme? What is the last enemy to be destroyed? It is death, according to Paul, I think in 1 Cor. 15. Does this include the second death, too? If not, why not?
    This is called waffling, or maybe jibberish.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    So since the same word is used in the lake of fire description of forever, and in terms used of God's duration, they both will have an end. Really, is that what you are saying, God's time, God's duration, the kingdom of Jesus will have an end?
    No, that is not what I am saying. God is the God of the ages, of the aions. He is eternal. And His kingdom will have no end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. God is the God of the ages, of the aions. He is eternal. And His kingdom will have no end.
    That's a good thing.

    Since it says the same thing about the lake of fire, using the same Greek word, so it is too, eternal.

    And it should be noted that when the word is used to depict "ages" the context of the verses determine it's translation. As it does with the lake of fire forever and ever. As it does with the Eternal One.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    or maybe jibberish.
    Not to sidetrack the thread but is it just me or has the whole world lost touch with reality?

    I really can't think of any other time in my entire life when so many people are saying things that are so irrational. Just today there is news that Shaquille O'Neal seriously believes the earth is flat adding his voice to what many others recently have said. And probably half the US population seem to have become Chicken Little claiming and apparently believing the sky is falling and the world is coming to an end just because Trump got elected.

    And in Europe, even after all of their Muslim terrorist attacks, many leaders want to increase the number of Muslims from terrorist countries. And similarly in this country there are the judges and attorneys general who want to do the same thing ignoring the risk and regardless of the consequences and in spite of the facts and the actual wording of the executive order.

    The whole world has gone mad. Please tell me that what I think I see really isn't happening and that I must just be getting senile.

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