Religion is not a threat--audio file

[Wiskey Reb]

http://rabbisacks.org/religion-is-no...uza-at-cardus/

[Oscar Wilde]

Religion is a tool. As with any other tool, to be used for good or bad ... will be interesting to see what the good looks like.

O.W.

[Wiskey Reb]

Hmm. Well, I think I get what you're saying, but I'm not thinking religion itself can accurately be defined as a tool, at least not by those who truly embrace the tenents of their religion. Certainly though, people attempting to accomplish a prescribed goal can certainly utilize religion for that purpose. Religion, within this context, is defined by Webster as "a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices". So, while ones beliefs can be a tool, the meaning of religion certainly extends far beyond the perameters of merely a useful instrument. Yet, ones' attitude and persective on himself and his religion definately determines how one will utilize that in which he believes and embraces.

I see here often, that Christianity is viewed not as a religion but as a relationship with G-d. Realistically, though, the ideas of what that relationship is like is an aspect of a given religion...in fact, the very idea of relationship with divinity is part of what makes that relationship into a religion.

[Oscar Wilde]

Hmm. Well, I think I get what you're saying, but I'm not thinking religion itself can accurately be defined as a tool, at least not by those who truly embrace the tenents of their religion.

I don't disagree.

The majority of folks south of the Rio Grande ... down to around the Falkland Islands speak Spanish and make the sign of the Cross following Grace before eating their meals due to "religious practice".

O.W.

[Wiskey Reb]

I don't disagree.

The majority of folks south of the Rio Grande ... down to around the Falkland Islands speak Spanish and make the sign of the Cross following Grace before eating their meals due to "religious practice".

O.W.

Symbolic practice of crossing oneself, or someone else, certainly indentifies a person as belonging to one of a particular few sects within Christianity that practice such things. And each sect that practices it has its own method and meaning. Doctrines and beliefs are also defining elements of a religion. Even the shunning of symbolism within a faith tradition is a religiously held value. Basically, whatever a persons, or groups, faith based viewpoints, practices or traditions, whatever they may be...however many or few, complex or simple, are, by definition, religion. In the same vein, one's openess or closedness, lovingkindness or judgement, peacefulness or violence are all character traits of one's religion, seeing as they emmanate directly from the beliefs, practices and attitudes of that faith system. Whether a faith system, or those within it, is strong enough to peacefully interact with those of another without being adversely affected, is an important indicator of the efficacy of that religion to acheive the redemptive goal in the world, and in its own people, which entails its claim to strength and authority.

[grampster]

In my view, religion is overthinking and ritualizing the simplest of things and the hardest of things:

Simplest: I Am and you are My people and I Am all you need.

Hardest: Having faith that the above is true and living like it.

[Wiskey Reb]

In my view, religion is overthinking and ritualizing the simplest of things and the hardest of things:

Simplest: I Am and you are My people and I Am all you need.

Hardest: Having faith that the above is true and living like it.

I get it, Grampster. Yet, religion is a thing that so many attempt to redefine and shun, wishing to exempt themselves from it. I do understand that shunning religion is an attempt at seperating ones self from traditions, people and institutions which may be viewed as less than sincere or are adding too much humanity to a divine subject. As well, each person who senses a connection to G-d also views their approach to Him as being superior to others. That is natural and fine. But one part that is a bit dishonest in the whole thing is avoiding labels and definitions which rightly apply, for no other reason than to construct and maintain a false sense of otherness. The word religion, while having become wildly unpopular among seperatists, nonetheless applies to them as well. If a person really views himself as different or more authentic, a better attempt should be made at explaining that difference than attempting to redefine perfectly good words in our vocabulary.

[Wiskey Reb]

Another example is the use of the term "organized religion". Many claim to dislke organized religion, when what is really meant to be communicated is a dislike of institutions. I highly doubt that many would embrace the idea of a belief which has no structure, no organized approach to it, or no logical or consistent means of interpreting it.

In the usual cases, what is expressed regarding dislke of institutions is actually not a dislke of its basic doctrinal tenents, but rather its internal culture, feel, and the attitude projected by the majority of its followers. Most seperatists, while shunning traditions and institutions, maintain adherence to all, or most, primary elements of the same systematic theology as that established by the establishment. When I was a part of the home church movement, most groups, within a couple of years, came to realize that what had been established was not a home church, but merely regular church in homes. In fact, what was discovered, was that the worst of what caused most people to leave the church, they had now brought into the safe abode of their homes. What they originally sought to seperate from, had instead become more intimately attached to them. They had brought those same attitudes and culture home with them. The environment produced was erected by the structure of their own beliefs....their "organized religion".

Regardless of how simple and basic one views his faith to be, it is likely to have been established and framed by an institutionalized religious organization, or at least by the early teachings from which those same institutions were derived. This is not a bad thing, or a shame in any way, it is simply a fact, which basic honesty should compel us all to admit. Those of a faith belief are religious, and are, to a great degree, the product of those who came before us. We are not an island....individualism may run deep, but not that deep.

[Wiskey Reb]

Another way of phrasing things, in a biblical context, is to acknowledge that a witness of two or three establishes a matter, or constitutes a valid witness. This is the level where witnesses are taken into account, where objective judgement occurs, where correction and instruction occur, and where community begins. In other words, where two or three are gathered with a common belief or diety, there is organized religion.