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Thread: This is for you Off-Grid

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    I think some clarification is needed first. Are you talking about the Millennial reign of Christ or the eternal kingdom? Although it could be said that the first merges into the second, they are still separate and distinct.

    One is on the current earth and with the current heavens while the other is on the new earth with the new heavens. The first kingdom will still have mortal humans living on earth while the second is only populated by those with immortal bodies. In the first there can and will be sin while in the second nothing that defiles will be allowed to enter.



    I don't agree that these verses from Matthew are talking about believers. Christ could never say to someone who has been born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, "I never knew you".
    My question was "Will we all have EQUAL Kingdom standing when Messiah returns?" I can't find much about the topic after the 1000 years. May have to think on that a bit.

    Let's look:
    Mat 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

    They called Him Master.
    They prophesied in His name.
    They cast out demons in His Name.
    They did mighty works in His name.

    What makes you think they weren't believers???? They were rejected for the reason Messiah gave. Similar to these warnings:

    2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first.
    2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command1 delivered unto them. Footnote: 1The singular “command” often means “commands” – see 1 Tim. 6:14, Dt. 17:20, Ps. 19:8.
    2Pe 2:22 For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”

    Rev 3:15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 “So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth.

    Tit 1:16 They profess to know Elohim, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unfit for any good work.

    These were all believers. Self deluded? Strong delusion? Apostasy? No telling...but they were believers.

    1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.2 Footnotes: 1Gen. 17:1, Ps. 119:1, Mt. 5:48. 2See 3:24.
    Last edited by Off-Grid Organics; 07-11-2017 at 06:09 PM.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    They called Him Master.
    They prophesied in His name.
    They cast out demons in His Name.
    They did mighty works in His name.

    What makes you think they weren't believers???? They were rejected for the reason Messiah gave.
    First, you didn't address the issue I mentioned as a primary reason why the verses aren't referring to believers. How could Christ say He never knew them? Here is what Christ has said about those who believe in Him:

    John 10:14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
    John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
    John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
    John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In order not to derail this thread I won't go into all of the other verses you listed but here is something I posted some time ago about the verses from Matthew:

    The people Christ is talking about in Mat 7:21-23 are not believers but are imposters. How do I know that these people are imposters? First, what does Christ tell them - "I never knew you". Could Christ ever say that about someone who has truly been saved and had their sins forgiven and become a child of God? Absolutely NOT! What does Christ mean when He says "I never knew you"? He can't be saying that He didn't know of them in a factual sense because He is God and knows everything. For the same reason He also can't be saying that He was somehow deceived by them initially and only later discovered who they really were. So Christ must be saying that He didn't know them in the sense that He never had a personal relationship with them. What does it mean to be saved if it is not a personal relationship with Christ since He dwells in the hearts of all those who believe (Eph 3:17)?

    And second, notice what they are saying to justify themselves and their entrance to heaven. "Look at all of these mighty works that we have done, in your name". That is only something that someone who has never been truly saved would say. "I deserve heaven because of my works".

    Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
    Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
    But I'm sure that some would be quick to point out that Christ says in verse 21 that "he who does the will of my Father" is going to be the one who will enter into the kingdom of heaven. But I don't believe the "will of my Father" here is only a reference to a believers works. Here is what Christ is also saying:

    John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
    Yes, believers are to produce good works but that fruit is only a result of our union with Christ and it is produced in us by the working of the Holy Spirit. But all of this is only made possible because we have "looked on the Son and believed in Him". That belief, and that alone, is why our sins are forgiven and why we are granted entrance to heaven, and our works, or lack of them, play no part.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    First, you didn't address the issue I mentioned as a primary reason why the verses aren't referring to believers. How could Christ say He never knew them?
    I already answered that..."Self deluded? Strong delusion? Apostasy? No telling...but they were believers."

    Believers:
    2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the first.
    2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the set-apart command1 delivered unto them. Footnote: 1The singular “command” often means “commands” – see 1 Tim. 6:14, Dt. 17:20, Ps. 19:8.
    2Pe 2:22 For them the proverb has proved true, “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “A washed sow returns to her rolling in the mud.”

    Believers:
    Rev 3:15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I would that you were cold or hot.
    Rev 3:16 “So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth.

    Believers:
    Tit 1:16 They profess to know Elohim, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unfit for any good work.

    These were all believers. Self deluded? Strong delusion? Apostasy? No telling...but they were believers.

    1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfected1 in him. By this we know that we are in Him.2 Footnotes: 1Gen. 17:1, Ps. 119:1, Mt. 5:48. 2See 3:24.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  4. #14
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    Off for the night! Shalom everyone!
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    I already answered that..."Self deluded? Strong delusion? Apostasy? No telling...but they were believers."
    Then you and I have a fundamental difference in understanding what it means to believe and be saved. If they were self deluded into thinking they were saved when they had never truly believed and placed their faith in Christ, then they weren't believers. If they had truly believed in Christ then Christ could never say He never knew them. It's just that simple and it has nothing to do with with any self delusion.

    John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
    John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
    John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
    Last edited by Forty9er; 07-11-2017 at 08:03 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    Then you and I have a fundamental difference in understanding what it means to believe and be saved. If they were self deluded into thinking they were saved when they had never truly believed and placed their faith in Christ, then they weren't believers. If they had truly believed in Christ then Christ could never say He never knew them. It's just that simple and it has nothing to do with with any self delusion.
    People can choose to walk away. This thread isn't about that though, so we will simply have to disagree. Perhaps you can create an OSAS thread?

    Joh 15:4 “Stay in Me, and I stay in you. As the branch is unable to bear fruit of itself, unless it stays in the vine, so neither you, unless you stay in Me.
    Joh 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who stays in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit. Because without Me you are able to do naught!
    Joh 15:6 “If anyone does not stay in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up. And they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    People can choose to walk away. This thread isn't about that though, so we will simply have to disagree. Perhaps you can create an OSAS thread?
    I actually wasn't trying to make a general argument for OSAS, which would be much more involved, but just pointing out why the verses in Matthew don't say what you believe they do. But as you can see, disagreeing on even a basic thing like what it means to be saved is at the core of many other differences.

  8. #18
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    Hey,

    A quick note to Forty9er:

    Just guessing but it appears to me that Off-grid seems to support a salvation perspective where one can lose their salvation. I could be wrong. Off-Grid keeps mentioning that it isn't based on works, but then mentions believers being kicked out, or what ever, so I get the impression he is referring to losing their faith.

    Now to Off-Grid:

    When you said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid
    Will we all have EQUAL Kingdom standing when Messiah returns?
    That meant to me that you were referring to individuals who would be ....living in/during/with the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth. And I think Forty9er got the same impression. And in that 1000 years would individuals have a sort of rank.

    Since there is nothing really said about anything much, after the new heavens, and new earth are created. Anything concerning rank would be mere speculation, and unable to be supported.

    I think we both got that impression because you specified a time period "when the Messiah returns", and at least for me, that would mean the beginning of the millennium.

    So you specified a time period. And it appeared you specified who, in that it would be the people who would be in that kingdom.

    And then you put up a bunch of verses, most of which are how to get into the kingdom, or who wouldn't get into the kingdom. Which from my perspective is a salvation issue, which in turn is one of the basic's we can't agree on.

    I also must say the way you do "depth" is quite different from the way I do it. I guess we are all individuals, and we do things differently. Just a fair warning, because you put up so many verses, for an in depth topical study, this study will probably turn into a verse study, and grow quite large. So here is the beginning of my part:

    This is what you quoted from Matt.:

    Mat 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’1 Footnote: 1 See v. 15.
    Allow me to use the KJV, not that I think you have to use it, or you'll go to hell, but it's the translation I am use to using. Just to make you aware I also the ASV from time to time.

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    What is the Context?

    It is a part of the Sermon on the Mount, which starts in Ch. 5 of Matt. And is spoken, or given, to all that are there, meaning it was not limited to a specific group, or person. Which you can see/find in Ch.4. Sort of in the same manner of a gathering in a coliseum and all are welcome. And is also even now directed to the public in general.

    Much has been said about the Sermon on the Mount, and whole books dedicated to it, and are available to those who would be more interested. However, we are narrowing our focus towards 7:21. Since 7:21 isn't something that is a separate thing, stuck off over yonder, but rather is part of a whole, what is the lead up to it?

    7:12 is the Golden Rule
    7:13-14 are the 2 ways, and 2 gates, narrow, or wide, and are directed to the narrow.
    7:15-20 the comparison between false prophets, and true. Which ends with:

    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    I notice 2 things about that verse. 1) it is by their fruits they shall be known, and not works, as in casting out demons, big ministries, or any other "great work". What fruit can that be, other than the fruit of the Spirit. Because no flesh, or even the work of the flesh will glory in His presence.

    Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    1Co_1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    As compared to:

    Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    Eph_5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
    As the context indicates Jesus has been making comparisons (He's actually made a lot all the way through the Sermon) the comparisons of the 2 laws (the Golden Rule verse), the 2 ways comparison, the 2 teachers/prophets comparison, and the results of the choices, that He is also making those same comparisons, and the results of those choices in 21-23.

    And it appears that because of the choices we have made, there will at some time, be a separation.

    When will that separation be?

    Because in verse 22 Jesus says "in that day" He means a future date. Since, as far as I know, there has not been a separation, up until today, then that "day" must be yet future.

    I believe that happens here:

    Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Compared to:
    [QUOTE]Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/QUOTE]

    The context of Rev. 20:11 is:

    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    And where were these individuals during this 1000 years? Rev. 20:12 "...And I saw the dead..."

    So then to me these verses in Matt. 7 are not about a ranking of believers during the Millennium, but rather of a judgment of unbelievers who have been raised from the dead for judgment after the Millennium.

    OK, I'm going to leave it there. It takes me a long time to compose these types of replies, and Sherree tells me several have been made since I got started. So all of this may have been discussed.

    But I would note again that this is some pretty basic salvation issues. Things we already decided we couldn't agree on.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post

    Just guessing but it appears to me that Off-grid seems to support a salvation perspective where one can lose their salvation. I could be wrong. Off-Grid keeps mentioning that it isn't based on works, but then mentions believers being kicked out, or what ever, so I get the impression he is referring to losing their faith.
    James summarized my position very clearly concerning faith/works:

    Jas 2:17 So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.
    Jas 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.
    Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!
    Jas 2:20 But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?

    I don't know how much clearer that could be. One without the other is dead.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    James summarized my position very clearly concerning faith/works:

    Jas 2:17 So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.
    Jas 2:18 But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.
    Jas 2:19 You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!
    Jas 2:20 But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?

    I don't know how much clearer that could be. One without the other is dead.
    It should be noted first off, that I was hoping to do some clarifying to Forty9er, not a put down for you.

    And if you will pay close attention, very close attention, it is the belief that produces the works.

    What kind of works would that be? The fruit of the Spirit. And if you will also pay attention to everything I said, I quoted several verses (in my dissertation) about what works will do and get you. So James can only be referring to one thing. Unless James is contradicting Paul.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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