A E Knoch commentary on heaven & hell

[richieryan]

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/heavhell.htm

[Forty9er]

http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Knoch/heavhell.htm

Since you and I have discussed this topic before, I won't go into a detailed response but I will make a couple of comments. The author makes the following statement:

One who has realized that, in interpreting Scripture, it is most important not to apply everything to everybody without distinction, will receive a Bible full of light and consistent teaching instead of untenable notions that condemn themselves.

This is about the only statement that the author makes that I can agree with. In regard to everything else he is hopelessly confused. For example, in regard to Christ's parable about the rich man and Lazarus he says the following:

One thing remains certain. We have here a hell, from which man is not saved through faith in Christ, but from which he saves himself by his own doing. A hell in connection with which Christ's death on the cross is not even mentioned. And this is contrasted with an "entry to life," which man can accomplish himself, not only without Calvary's power, but before Calvary's cross, existed. Nevertheless we are most emphatic in asserting that even the most godly and good are lost without Christ, no matter how much they labor and struggle. Anyone who is able to straighten this out, should do it. I was forced to give up trying.

I can see why he is confused. In this parable Christ is trying to show the blindness of the Jewish leaders and their lack of faith and their self righteousness and how that will ultimately end. But this parable does not teach and has nothing to do with "a hell, from which man is not saved through faith in Christ". No wonder he is confused. Here is another quote which shows his confusion:

The one who preaches Christ to sinners as the only means of salvation and at the same time threatens them with judgment proclaimed before His death for their sins; who acknowledges no other justification than the one by faith, yet points to rewards for works (see the sheep and the goats) or even to compensation for earthly suffering (Lazarus), cannot claim to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Again, there is utter confusion because rather that just accept the clear teaching of Scripture, he wants to substitute his own idea of what is holy and loving and right and just, and discard what God says in His Word. That approach never ends well.

[richieryan]

Copy that! I was just in need of a good christian spanking. It's been awhile.

[Forty9er]

Copy that! I was just in need of a good christian spanking. It's been awhile.

Glad I could bring a little sanity and common sense to the discussion. You know you don't have to agree with me but I hope you tend to agree with what Christ has said:

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever refuses to believe in the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

To understand what Christ is saying in this verse you don't need to know what He meant in the rich man and Lazarus parable, and you don't need to know the proper meaning of "Gehenna", and you don't even need to debate the meaning of "eternal". Those who don't believe in Christ "won't see life" but the wrath of God "remains on him". That's pretty simple. You either believe it or you don't.

[grampster]

To understand what Christ is saying in this verse you don't need to know what He meant in the rich man and Lazarus parable, and you don't need to know the proper meaning of "Gehenna", and you don't even need to debate the meaning of "eternal"....

Might not the above tie in a bit when scripture says, 1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ??

[Bezukhov]

So when did God create Hell? Before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, or after?

God said they would die if they ate. Did God decide that Death was too good for them, and thought it would be fun watching them suffer for all eternity?

[Forty9er]

Might not the above tie in a bit when scripture says, 1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)¹² For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ??

Yes, I'm sure that is true for several things. None of us understand everything in Scripture perfectly and have all of our doctrines correct. For one thing, I don't think we can fully understand what eternity is until this mortal puts on immortality.

And even Peter thought some of the things Paul taught were hard to understand. But I think that God has given us His written Word and the Holy Spirit so that we can and should get the basic things about Himself and salvation correct.

[Forty9er]

So when did God create Hell? Before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, or after?

God said they would die if they ate. Did God decide that Death was too good for them, and thought it would be fun watching them suffer for all eternity?

So in addition to not believing you choose to mock God? God's existence and His judgment don't depend on you believing that they exist. You may want to reconsider what you are doing.

[Bezukhov]

So in addition to not believing you choose to mock God? God's existence and His judgment don't depend on you believing that they exist. You may want to reconsider what you are doing.

Mocking? Moi? They're valid questions. One more thing. What exactly did the rich man in that parable do to deserve eternal torment? Why did the poor man merit such a reward?

ETA: Back to Adam & Eve. If they didn't eat from that tree, would they have ended up in Heaven?

[Bezukhov]

Is suffering for an eternity preferable to a complete cessation of consciousness?