That was great Forty9er!
My point was to some of the crazy rational that people use to justify doing something. That too, will be/could be a precursor.
"After all it's a woman's body she should be able to do what she wants with it." As a case in point.
In the years that have passed, many scholars thought the "Mark" would be a tattoo. Then in the intervening years, we thought that was just so "old fashion", and tattoo's were taboo, too.
Today, tattoo's are fashionable, implanted chips are trendy, as is computer watches, iPhones (GPS enabled for tracking), and all kinds of wearable tech (fitbit).
It seems to be moving towards desensitizing people to this type of stuff, and making it a common, reasonable thing.
As is desensitizing people to evolution as reasonable. Manipulating DNA is reasonable. Scifi stuff looks to be within reach. All of which seems to move the focus off of The Creator, to something, anything, else. So when the Mark actually does take place it will seem reasonable, and not so outlandish, as it did to me reading it as a kid, teen, back in the 60's.
And today there is scanable tattoo's.
All of this is a precursor, the final line will be, who you worship.
Hummm isn't that the final line now?
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Yes, and many people today have their girlfriend/boyfriend's name tattooed on themselves. So this is similar but takes it a step further.
Yes, but today a person can worship a false god and later repent and place their faith in Christ. But once it is possible for a person to worship the beast and accept his mark, then there will be no possibility for repentance.
Hey Forty9er,
Yeah, just think a person can get "Gidget" tattooed on their chest, and then break up and marry Mary. LOL.Yes, and many people today have their girlfriend/boyfriend's name tattooed on themselves. So this is similar but takes it a step further.
We had some guys, at work, who had holes put in their ears, not pierced, but holes. I asked a friend if they knew that was permanent? And wondered what that would look like when they were 70? Here, hold these, while I use the bathroom. LOL. I don't know, just figure it might be ugly later in life.
That is true, even a killer like Bundy, can repent, now. But then, a "good ol' boy" once they take the Mark, is done for.Yes, but today a person can worship a false god and later repent and place their faith in Christ. But once it is possible for a person to worship the beast and accept his mark, then there will be no possibility for repentance.
Wise Men Still Seek Him
And that fact shows a clear distinction between the current dispensation and the one that will be in effect during the tribulation. So that begs the question, why the change or what is the event that caused the change from one dispensation to another? Of course I have a possible answer for that question but I would like your take on it.
2 Thessalonians chapter 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
brightness of his coming:
9 Even him whose coming is after the working
of Satan with all power and signs and lying
wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteous-
ness in them that perish; because they received
not the love of the truth, that they might be
saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong
delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed
not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Pastor Guest
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Hey,
I think you, and I have discussed this from another perspective. However, I don't mind giving my take on it, no problem.
A little background for those who may not know what we are talking about (or what I think we are talking about).
Dispensationalism is a point of view, that very roughly sees, one dispensation starting, as one ends. When those dispensations start, and end, and how many there are, depend on the individual, and vary. I went to church with one guy who thought there were 8 dispensations in the Book of Acts alone.
In several dispensational views the dispensational period we are in is, the Church Age, or the Dispensation of Grace period. Which started with Pentecost in Acts 2, and will end with "the rapture of the Church" at the beginning of Tribulation Period, which starts a new dispensation, and goes roughly through the 7 year Tribulation Period.
Not trying to lock you into a view Forty9er. Just saying that's a general view that is held. Please feel free to correct. Which is also why I said what I did concerning the parable of the Rich man and the poor. It would be before Acts 2, and thus fall under a different dispensation, so you might not go along with what I said, and that would of been fine with me.
My particular view is not dispensationalism. I don't know if there is a name for it. I may be the only one on the planet with it, and they don't name .....views/doctrines after one guy. LOL
My view is a belief that all peoples, in all ages, "are saved" through a belief in Jesus Christ. OT saints were saved looking forward to someone coming to save them, at some future event, and they received it in retrospect, kind of like grandfathered in. Those of us, in this age, the NT, are saved looking back to the event that could save us. OT guys and gals because it would be done, NT guys and gals because it was done. Therefore to include all, of those who believe in Jesus for salvation in the rapture, the rapture would have to take place at, or near the very end of the 7 year Tribulation Period.
That's the different in views.
From the stand point of salvation alone. The "Tribulation Saints" in a dispensational view, especially depicted by the FICTIONAL story "Left Behind", (Forty9er may or may not go along with that story) is the same as those before the rapture. A belief in Jesus, in a very general sense. So on that account I don't see any difference between a dispensational view, and mine.
From the stand point of the lost, and taking the Mark, thus preventing repentance and salvation. I'm just not so sure what is happening there, is something new, but rather something that is more out in the open, and visible for all to see, and showing that God is righteous. I would also mention that this Mark thing, takes place near the end of the Tribulation Period.
I think it was Esau who sought repentance, and could not find it. There will be, what I would call "normal people", during the Millennium who when they sin are immediately stuck down, without an opportunity for repentance. I realize that for a dispensationalist, that will be in another dispensation.
There are others who went to hell alive, without the opportunity for repentance. Just saying that this has happened in the past, and will happen again in the future. So the deal with the Mark may not be so rare, or a different way of operating. But rather like the forces of darkness operating behind the scenes now, and out in the open then, so too the Mark.
I'm also not advocating Calvinism. Just throwing that in.
I may not, and probably don't have all this down pat. All I know is I have placed my hope, and faith, and salvation in Jesus. If that means I leave here before the 7 year Trib. that would be great. If it means I have to refuse the Mark then so be it, I will.
That's my generic take on it. Hope I didn't blow your view. I didn't want, or mean, to put any words in your mouth, so please correct if I misconstrued your view.
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Pastor, as you probably know, I think the possible identity of the "he" (KJV) or the "one" referred to in verse 7 is the Holy Spirit who is restraining this evil today and believe that the rapture is when He is "taken out of the way". I don't know if you would agree with that or believe the "he" is referring to someone or something else.
But here is how I would relate the removal of Holy Spirit's influence in the world through the Church, which occurs at the rapture, to the change that occurs during the tribulation with regard to there being no hope for those who take the mark of the beast. When Christ announced the coming of the Holy Spirit He said the following:
This special ministry of the Holy Spirit, to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment came on the day of Pentecost with the coming of the Holy Spirit and the formation of the Church. I believe that when the Church is removed at the rapture that special ministry of the Holy Spirit will also come to an end and without that ministry in the world people who come under the influence of Satan and the beast and who worship him and receive the mark will lose the possibility of repentance.John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor won’t come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:8 When he has come, he will convict the world about sin, and about righteousness, and about judgment;
John 16:9 about sin, because they do not believe in me;
John 16:10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, and you won’t see me any more;
John 16:11 about judgment, because the prince of this world has been judged.
Thanks Cary. I was writing my response to the Pastor and didn't see your post. I think you are generally correct in how you describe the standard dispensational views. With regard to my views, on some of those things I don't have a strong opinion and believe that there probably isn't enough evidence in Scripture to make a strong statement one way or the other.