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Thread: Solar Eclipse: Sign from God?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Not quite accurate. The language in Genesis 1, when it describes timing for festivals, uses the word moedim. The word for signs is completely different. So, it is not a case where only a special occurance is a sign, but the normal occurances. Most certainly a normal occurance can be and are signs. Ex 31:13, for example, describes the sabbaths as a sign.
    I stand corrected regarding the word used for the timing of a festival but that doesn't affect the general point I was trying to make. And, yes, I understand that a normal occurrence can be a sign. Another example would be circumcision. But what I was trying to say is that the word "sign" can have two basic meanings, one for a normal occurrence, which is more like a token, and one for an extraordinary occurrence, like a miracle.

    When a sign is related to a normal occurrence, then the message from God is more of a token or reminder. And when a sign is related to some extraordinary occurrence, then the message from God has a special meaning, like a proof or a warning. But I see no evidence that a normal occurrence conveys some special message from God. So I don't consider an eclipse or some alignment of planets and stars is used by God to send a special message or to give people or nations a warning of future events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Drawing a fine line is also called rightly dividing, it simply depends on whether one is placing a positive or negative connotation to it. It's a value in my biblical economy to accurately portray what it is saying and what it is not. So, if hair splitting is a danger, so too is painting with too broad of brush strokes. The science of astronomy also seeks to find meaning in the cosmos, albeit on a macro scale, and it is hardly a negative thing. You have described yourself, on various threads, things that scripture is not. I think fairly recently you stated that the Bible is not a treatise on science. Neither is it a treatise on Astronomy or interpreting signs.
    How do you rightly divide or draw a line separating two areas when they overlap? You seem to be saying that some kind of Biblical astrology could be valid as long as it regards nations and isn't some personal prediction for individuals. But doesn't a prediction regarding a nation necessarily affect the individual people of that nation personally?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    The Babylonians also developed the science of astronomy. Just because it was Babylonian doesn't make it bad. They also developed pretty sophisticated mathematics, agricultural practices, infrastructures, political philosophies, historical records, ethical and governmental code, art, literature, education, architecture, trade, commerce, etc. Hardly things to be shunned just because they are Babylonian.
    But the Babylonians made no distinction between astronomy and astrology (and they aren't alone in that regard). They didn't understand the actual science involved in astronomy but only based their predictions on repeating patterns over many years and I imagine they did the same for their astrology. They couldn't distinguish the difference because even their astronomy predictions were not certain and had some probability associated with them (they had no knowledge of the orbits of heavenly bodies). So they couldn't tell that their astronomy predictions were any different fundamentally than their astrology predictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Plenty of Biblical scholars recognize that there appeared to have once been a school of prophets. Samuel had an entourage of prophets, who are not named individually. And a company of prophets are mentioned repeatedly in association with Ramoth Gilead.
    If there had been schools for prophets I see no evidence that they involved training in some body of knowledge in how to predict the future or how to interpret signs. Prophets were spokesmen for God and obtained the message they were to proclaim directly from God, not from knowledge they obtained in school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Rabbinic writing offers a back and forth dialog on astrology. While it is not specifically forbidden, doing it as the nations do it is very problematic. While rightly dividing scripture definately indicates signs coming from the regular courses, seeing them as an omen or signal of coming cataclysmic event, or even as a message to kings or individual horiscopes is, imo, not valid within rabbinic instruction, but not forbidden either, except to consult n astrologer, as the full means for interpreting such signs is lost.
    I think you discount the evidence in Scripture against using any type of astrology, even some type of what could be called Biblical astrology used to tell of future events for nations. Consider the following verses:

    Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD, “Do not learn the way of the nations, and do not be dismayed at the signs of the sky; for the nations are dismayed at them.
    Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;
    Isa 44:25 who foils the omens of the empty talkers, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish;
    God didn't write the future in the stars. Does God give miraculous and extraordinary signs in the heavens as warnings of future events? Occasionally, yes, but as far as I can tell they are never based on an interpretation of some regular occurrence in the heavens.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    Thanks, Wiskey. Good post. Although we are told not to inquire of diviners? Do you have some knowledge about that prohibition?
    Deuteronomy 18:10-11 gives a pretty good rundown of those prohibitions. Divination is prohibited....G-d calls it detestable in verse 12. I have enough knowledge to know that divination and astrology are not the same thing. Yet, most Christian expositors tend to lump all such things together, treating all such words as identical in definition.

    Another interesting observtion is that other ancient writings, such as the book of Enoch, which is regarded highly in its discussion of watchers and fallen angels, contains extensive astrological information. A fact that is conveniently set aside while making a case that Enoch is true. While that does not legitimize astrology biblically, it does point out certain inconsistencies in doctrines and speculations.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=Wiskey Reb;2712059]

    Deuteronomy 18:10-11 gives a pretty good rundown of those prohibitions. Divination is prohibited....G-d calls it detestable in verse 12. I have enough knowledge to know that divination and astrology are not the same thing. Yet, most Christian expositors tend to lump all such things together, treating all such words as identical in definition.

    Another interesting observtion is that other ancient writings, such as the book of Enoch, which is regarded highly in its discussion of watchers and fallen angels, contains extensive astrological information. A fact that is conveniently set aside while making a case that Enoch is true. While that does not legitimize astrology biblically, it does point out certain inconsistencies in doctrines and speculations.
    It is a fact that only God KNOWS the future. People have, seemingly, and in general, always desired to know it, too. Kinda. Guess I'm not sure what God means by using the term divination, except I've often thought of it as trying to find out the future through unlawful means. Communicating with the dead, for example is prohibited and may be "cheating".

    I'm not sure that forty9er is right when he asserts that God has not written the future in the heavens, but I have often wondered who decided the meanings of the so called 'zodiac' and all that the formations and phases of everything mean. Apparently, Daniel, while in captivity with the Babylonians, learned some stuff from them and he was highly favored by God, not saying that this was due to his learning from them, however. Maybe, and probably, he taught them a thing or two, too. These "wise men' from the East, who saw Jesus' sign being born due to the star being in its right constellation or whatever, were probably taught by Daniel in what to look for?

    I guess, for me, knowing the future by God, is an amazing attribute. One, of course, that I can't figure out....unless He's already there, and outside "time" somehow. But, that's OK for me not to understand how He knows it, Maybe He's orchestrating it, or causing it all anyway, as He is the Author of His Story.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    I stand corrected regarding the word used for the timing of a festival but that doesn't affect the general point I was trying to make. And, yes, I understand that a normal occurrence can be a sign. Another example would be circumcision. But what I was trying to say is that the word "sign" can have two basic meanings, one for a normal occurrence, which is more like a token, and one for an extraordinary occurrence, like a miracle.
    I don't disagree with your above assessment for the most part. Yet, the pictures we see in the night sky are not merely imaginings. What the meaning of those signs are is indeed speculative, and many traditions have had their ideas about them..


    When a sign is related to a normal occurrence, then the message from God is more of a token or reminder. And when a sign is related to some extraordinary occurrence, then the message from God has a special meaning, like a proof or a warning. But I see no evidence that a normal occurrence conveys some special message from God. So I don't consider an eclipse or some alignment of planets and stars is used by God to send a special message or to give people or nations a warning of future events.
    The first obvious question is, what constitutes a normal occurance as opposed to an extraordinary one? The constellations, for example are all part of the annual cycles, while eclipses, planetary alignments, and the like are more extraordinary. Yet, they are all a part of the natural cycling of the universe. Even more extraordinary are meteors which strike the earth, which are one time shots. But they again, are all part of the natural movements in the universe. We cannot say with any certainty that any celestial occurance is extraordinary in the sense of not being part of the natural workings of the universe. When Psalm 19:2 states about the heavens declaring the glory of G-d " Day unto day uttereth speech, And night unto night revealeth knowledge", we can speculate all kinds of ways about what that entails. So, what is extraordinary enough to be a special event?...only one time occurances, perhaps. This is a similar debate to that of hurricanes, volcanos and earthquakes. They are certainly common annual occurrances, occur in the lower heavens and have pretty common paths, albeit not as predictable as the stars and planets. But are they utilized by G-d as signs or affects of sin for nations or towns affected by them? There are plenty of viewpoints both ways, but nothing that can be scientifically proven, or even argued from a sound theological point of view....only from speculation, which is not bad to do, just not something by which to pattern ones life, worldview or theology.

    How do you rightly divide or draw a line separating two areas when they overlap? You seem to be saying that some kind of Biblical astrology could be valid as long as it regards nations and isn't some personal prediction for individuals. But doesn't a prediction regarding a nation necessarily affect the individual people of that nation personally?
    There is overlap in just about everything in life, including skill sets, areas of study in various disciplines, even in religions....and even between "Christianity and Judaism/ the Judeo Christian tradition", and other world religions. So too, there is overlap between things that are good/productive and things that are bad/destructive, which is obvious beyond my need to put forward examples. Rightly dividing has to do with assessment and judgement....deciding when something is being utilized rightly and when it is not. Certainly the stars and constellations are not evil in themselves, nor is the study of them...Neither is it evil in itself to study human patterns and events as corrolate to cellestial patterns. And certain correlations have been observed.

    Every event that is collectively experienced has personal effects on individuals. That is a different thing than determining personal daily activity by what ones horiscope is said to determine for them. Is it superstition to make preperation for a looming hurricane? It depends. I live in Pennsylvania, and it would be magical thinking for me to board up my house in anticipation of the currently looming hurricane. Yet, for someone in South Carolina coast today, that may not be magical thinking per se, but rather premature and paranoid speculation considering the position of the storm. If the storm starts rolling up the East coast, then it all changes from craziness to being prudent instantly. Likewise, and strangely, studies in recent years are showing that certain mental as well as physical health issues, and susceptability to them, appear to correlate roughly with month of birth. While this may be shocking, it also has a rational explanation. Deficiencies, such as the lack of vitamin D in winter, indoor dust conditions in fall and winter, and heat stresses in summer months may have long term effects on infant development. While that is hardly indicative of any magical way that the cellestial bodies determine ones fate, it is also indicative that the stellar cycles of time and the environment that results from them, have a very real impact on human life. That is something quite different than determining by the stars if one should aggressively pursue career objectives today, or nurture interpersonal relationships instead....lol.


    But the Babylonians made no distinction between astronomy and astrology (and they aren't alone in that regard). They didn't understand the actual science involved in astronomy but only based their predictions on repeating patterns over many years and I imagine they did the same for their astrology. They couldn't distinguish the difference because even their astronomy predictions were not certain and had some probability associated with them (they had no knowledge of the orbits of heavenly bodies). So they couldn't tell that their astronomy predictions were any different fundamentally than their astrology predictions.
    Actually, only within a couple hundred years have astonomy and astrology become fully seperated by any culture or society....a very recent occurrance in the big scheme of things. The astronomy/ astrology of ancient Babylonians informed the Greeks, then the Romans and that study continued in an unbroken chain that spanned nations, empires and continents over time. While likely a much older habit, the Babylonians were the first known to apply and record consistent and repeatable patterns to their studies, an early form of the scientific method. In doing so, it was natural and reasonable to ask whether the observed patterns they recorded had further implications. In their estimations, patterns emerged regarding certain celestial events and earthly happenings. Obviously, those were extrapolated and eventually attributed to gods or assumed that the constellations determined everyones fate, especially that of kings. So, problematic thinking emerged. In my own attempt to rightly divide, I see this as no different than present day scientists, geologists, mathemeticians and astronomers (and those who follow their work and speculate on their findings) who observe data, calculate probabilities, record phenomena, and present those findings to the world, along with their personal certainties about what it all means as pertains to the origins, age, purpose and future of the universe and mankind. The speculating itself is not evil. But treating their speculation as deterministic or as certain as the actual science itself is no different than what horoscopists do.


    If there had been schools for prophets I see no evidence that they involved training in some body of knowledge in how to predict the future or how to interpret signs. Prophets were spokesmen for God and obtained the message they were to proclaim directly from God, not from knowledge they obtained in school.
    In all truthfulness, no one knows what their teachings and disciplines consisted of. But it is clear from scripture that the company of prophets existed, and they banded together. Clearly there was a purpose in doing so. And prophets through whom G-d spoke in scripture intermingled themselves with many others who are unknown by name, relationship to G-d or message to their countrymen. Just as clearly, the prophets recorded in scripture carried messages that G-d chose to preserve from antiquity to the present. Certainly, prophets told of signs. It is not unreasonable to assert that they taught and learned the meaning of existing and past signs and occurances. That would include signs in the heavens.



    I think you discount the evidence in Scripture against using any type of astrology, even some type of what could be called Biblical astrology used to tell of future events for nations. God didn't write the future in the stars. Does God give miraculous and extraordinary signs in the heavens as warnings of future events? Occasionally, yes, but as far as I can tell they are never based on an interpretation of some regular occurrence in the heavens.
    And I think you assume too much from scripture, filling in rather large blanks that are left open by the text. What should be clear is that the heavenly lights are for signs. What is not as clear is what those signs mean. We tend toward arrogance in our modern age of enlightenment, imo, presuming that anything we can't know now could not have been known in ages past. We do not know what G-d revealed to the prophets, nor how. What we do know from scripture is that G-d does nothing that he does not reveal first through his sevants, the prophets. I have exactly zero confidence in any so called modern day prophets even existing. But that is not to say that there will not be those who emerge again in such capacity. But I do believe that wise men throughout history have offered sound advice regarding these things. Jewish sages are among them. Their advice is that consulting the stars, while having a certain validity, is for the gentiles. Those who's character and destiny are tyed to G-d are not subject to celestial events or signs, but to the word of G-d. In other words, those who follow only instincts and in accordance to the nature of things under which they are born will always be subject to that. But those who attach themselves to G-d can transcend leanings and inclinations which may otherwise be determined by their micro and macro environments.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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