The Lake of Fire

[dmatic]

Nothing will alter 49ers pov unless God gives that belief. I understand now that 49er views us as enemies of the faith and that is why the opposition. There is no desire to see, they feel they are protecting some from being led astray. I get that. I'm a sheepdog protector to the core until I leave this place.

I get that, too, richieryan. He thinks he is right, of course, and that his heart is in the right place. I get that, too. I am convinced that God will have us all come to repentance and knowledge of the truth, and that He is most certainly able to accomplish His will, despite "will worshippers" unbelief. I will try to comment on forty9er's questions after I read your contribution from Martin, which I assume is Mr. Zender. Thanks

[Forty9er]

Jesus never did promise "eternal life" to his followers

This is a good example of the perversion that Martin Zender, and others like him, do to Scripture in order to be able to promote his universal salvation agenda. The "eternal life" that is promised 43 times in the NT is not really eternal but only life for some undefined "age". That isn't much of a promise is it?

And then he conveniently neglects to say that our redmeption must also only be for an age because the same Greek word is used to describe our eternal redemption. One more perversion from Martin, this time regarding salvation.

And He also doesn't mention that his translation means that Christ's life, which is described as being with the Father from eternity, is not eternal but just for an age.

So in order to justify the doctrine of universal salvation Martin is willing to pervert just about any and every basic belief that defines the Gospel and what Christians hold dear.

[Forty9er]

Let's look at a couple of other verses which show conclusively that the Greek word "aionios", which is translated as "eternal" in nearly every major translation of the Bible, can and does mean "eternal".

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

When this verse says that someone who receives eternal life will never thirst again, the Greek word translated as "never" has the following definition from Strong's:

a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:—any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise).

And the same Greek word translated as "never" is used in the following verse:

John 10:28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

How is it possible that someone who has only been promised life in a limited age will never, not ever, thirst again? How is it possible that someone who has only been given life in a limited age will never, not ever, perish? It isn't possible.

[dmatic]

What a wonderful reading, richieryan! I would have hoped that forty9er would have read it more slowly and thoughtfully, because Mr. Zender did an excellent job of answering the questions from the Baptist Minister. Some of which, forty9er has asked as well. And he did so with a bit of humor, too! Thanks for sharing that richieryan. I will try to come back and answer you forty9er, if I can find a bit more time.....thanks for your patience.

[Forty9er]

I would have hoped that forty9er would have read it more slowly and thoughtfully, because Mr. Zender did an excellent job of answering the questions from the Baptist Minister. Some of which, forty9er has asked as well.

You mean "answers" like the following:

John 3:36 means just what it says; "He that believeth not shall not see life." That used to be you, didn’t it? Or did you always believe? Maybe you’ve always been a believer. Maybe you were never an unbeliever—ever. Wow. You’re lucky. Most of us aren’t that blessed. We were once unbelievers and were not seeing life. But then God gave us belief and we saw life. God will eventually give belief to everyone, in the ages to come. He has to, or He cannot become all in all (1 Cor. 15:2.

This is just one more twisting of Scripture which makes no sense. If words have any meaning at all then this verse makes a clear and permanent distinction between those who believe and receive eternal life and those who refuse to believe and will not see life. There is not one hint that the verse is talking about some temporary condition of unbelief so Martin's translation is without foundation and is entirely made up from thin air.

And in order to justify this false translation he says that it has to mean that, regardless of what it actually says, because of how he has mistranslated 1Cor 15:28. So he uses one mistranslation of a verse to totally fabricate the meaning of another verse. Excellent work Martin!

[Off-Grid Organics]

Refuting the doctrine of eternal torment

I always thought the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in flames.

[Forty9er]

I always thought the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in flames.

I think you should do a study of all the verses which talk about the wicked, after death, receiving punishment for their sins. And I suppose that it is just coincidence that the beast and false prophet are tormented in the lake of fire, the same place that those who don't have their name written in the book of life are thrown. But somehow, those people aren't tormented as well but just cease to exist, even though the verses in Revelation don't say that for some strange reason. Must be another glaring error in translation.

[Off-Grid Organics]

the lake of fire

Second DEATH; wages of sin and such: Rev 20:14 And the death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second DEATH.

[Forty9er]

Second DEATH; wages of sin and such: Rev 20:14 And the death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second DEATH.

Yes, the lake of fire defines what the second death is. But you want to turn it upside down and say that death defines the lake of fire. That isn't how it works. We are told what happens in the lake of fire, even without depending on the name alone, so you are trying to change that definition to something you prefer to see, which isn't stated in the context. Maybe you could assist Martin Zender in his translations because you seem to use the same methods.

[Off-Grid Organics]

second death

Rev 21:8 “But as for the cowardly, and untrustworthy, and abominable, and murderers, and those who whore, and drug sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the false, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second DEATH.”

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH...