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Thread: Understanding Prayer

  1. #1
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    Default Understanding Prayer

    A ten part series by Rabbi Jonathan Sacks. About 4 minutes each.

    Part 1:
    https://youtu.be/pm7lPIAF1fc
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    Jesus says, "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me​."
    Pastor Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Guest View Post
    Jesus says, "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me​."
    Not sure what you're saying, PG. Are you suggesting that Rabbi Sacks does not know about prayer, or that his prayers are not heard or responded to by G-d because he' not a Christian? Did you even watch the series?

    What do you suppose Jesus meant in saying that? Did he refer to his flesh and bone, or was he referring to the truth of his message and teaching? Does Jesus' flesh save people, or his spirit?

    How do you interpret John ch 6? What flesh was Jesus referring to?
    Last edited by Wiskey Reb; 09-25-2017 at 07:01 PM.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiskey Reb View Post
    Not sure what you're saying, PG. Are you suggesting that Rabbi Sacks does not know about prayer, or that his prayers are not heard or responded to by G-d because he' not a Christian? Did you even watch the series?

    What do you suppose Jesus meant in saying that? Did he refer to his flesh and bone, or was he referring to the truth of his message and teaching? Does Jesus' flesh save people, or his spirit?

    How do you interpret John ch 6? What flesh was Jesus referring to?
    Are you saying he can come to the Father other than by coming through Jesus?

    I watched about 10 minutes of the presentation. I read his homepage on his web site. No mention of Jesus. I read a brief biography of him. Lots of accolades from the world, but nothing about him believing on Jesus.
    Pastor Guest

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    "Steps Toward the Mark of the Beast"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Guest View Post
    Are you saying he can come to the Father other than by coming through Jesus?

    I watched about 10 minutes of the presentation. I read his homepage on his web site. No mention of Jesus. I read a brief biography of him. Lots of accolades from the world, but nothing about him believing on Jesus.
    Well, since you apparently won't offer a response to any of my questions, such as, what does it mean to come through Jesus, perhaps you can answer some of the following. If a follower is known by his fruits (the fruit of the spirit), and this rabbi bears that fruit, what should be concluded regarding him? Better yet, what if that rabbi teaches all that Jesus taught, only in the name of Yeshua/ G-d's salvation? Is Jesus defined primarily by his flesh, or by a heavenly identity? What if that rabbi confesses that yeshua, G-d's salvation, as messiah's having come, in the flesh, in many biblical examples, as opposed to those who did not believe in an earthly messiah? Certainly if one reads beyond his new testament, he will find many such examples. And that issue fits most perfectly with the sectarian dynamic of that time.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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    While there were certainly Jews in the first century who did not accept Jesus as messiah, there was no total break that believers had with them for at least another century, some say longer. Church letters suggest much longer. But there certainly was a break with those who denied the possibility of a human messiah for the world. That sect excluded believers during the years of the apostles. Perhaps you can explain also, if making that fleshly distinction was paramount, say, to John, why were his words not heeded by so many for centuries after the temple destruction, despite certain Christian leaders complaints? Even at the time of the codifying of the NT, there was yet to be a clear distinction between church and synagogue, at least not for the regular believer on the street. Into the three and four hundreds, significant populations of Christians were still incorporated into synagogue life. Why would this have been? And, presupposing your effort to be an emulator of the early church, why do you make this distinction so paramount? What might have been the motive for late pre and early post-Constantinians for insisting on the break, even upon force of death? It seems that your good intent may have differed from theirs.

    Could it be, PG, that I, who do not accept that a man can be G-d, treat Jesus more like G-d than you do? While you seem focused on his earthly corpse, I am treating the breath of his words, his teachings and his mission as a heavenly constant, an eternal absolute. All the while, you seem stuck on a material identity. Did Jesus emphasize that? I don't see it. If a Jewish rabbi treats as an eternal absolute virtually everything that Jesus taught, including a heavenly yeshua hamashiac, recited in the siddur read by his grandfather and great grandfather before him, is he of no account to G-d? Is his worldly popularity now somehow a demerit?....all because Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers", and he is a peacemaker with perhaps none like him in our time? Are the fruits of the spirit now included as salvation through works, simply because he's not a Christian?

    In case you are unaware, Rabbi Sacks has accomplished, and is accomplishing, what no govt official or Christian leader has ever done. He has brought together leaders and commoners alike, from opposing forces of mutual hate. And in a non-ecumenical way, found words to instigate peace. He is fulfilling the mission of Jesus, especially between people of the Abrahamic faiths. Not in order to equate their religions, but to draw out the best intent in each person, draw them near to G-d, and destroy the traditions of hatred that have promoted violence for millenia. He certainly is no messiah, but in my viewing, he is accomplishing much more of the messianic goal than are Christians in their exclusivity and insistance upon a one world religion made in their own image. Perhaps you should give him more of a chance than a mere passing glance.
    Last edited by Wiskey Reb; 09-26-2017 at 06:27 AM.
    But what weapons can you use to dispossess someone who will not accept anything except Holy Scripture interpreted according to his own rules?...Where Lutheranism reigns, learning dies. They seek only two things: good pay and a wife. The gospel offers them the rest — that is, the power of living as they please.

    I understand now how Arius and Tertullian and Wickliff were driven into schism by malicious clergy and wicked monks.

    (Erasmus regarding Luther and the church, 1527, 1529)

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