MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT and her merchandise

[Forty9er]

My personal POV if anyone cares, or matters is:

God hasn't proved Himself to be a dummy, in fact just the opposite. Therefore when He says to come out of her, meaning Mystery Babylon, we will know what He means. At present we don't know what Mystery Babylon is, much less what it means. I know for those who believe in a pre-trib rapture it doesn't matter because you believe you will be gone. For those who believe in a post-trib. rapture we will know, beyond any shadow of a doubt what it is, and does, and who controls it.

I care. You make some good points but here are some issues.

I don't think it is true that Mystery Babylon shouldn't matter to those who believe in a pre-trip rapture. This Mystery Babylon is a system that is probably developing in the world long before the Tribulation. So if it is wrong for Christians to be a part of this evil system during the Tribulation then it should be just as wrong for Christians even before the Tribulation and rapture.

And I don't think you should associate the belief in a pre-trib rapture with the false doctrine that the liberal church has been promoting for many years which is that under the influence of Christianity the world will continue to get better and better and more holy until it finally morphs into the sinless heavenly kingdom. People who believe that don't believe in a pre-trib rapture and vice versa.

And I think you previously said you believe in a mid-trib or a pre-wrath rapture as opposed to post-trib. If I am wrong about that please correct me. But here is what I don't understand about the mid-trib view. When I previously had a rapture discussion with Pastor Guest, who I think is mid-trib, he identified the seventh trumpet of Rev 11:15 as the "last trumpet" of 1Cor 15:52 when the rapture occurs because the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet mentioned in Revelation.

But many tremendous events mentioned in Revelation occur after the seventh trumpet sounds - the woman clothed with the sun, Satan thrown down to the earth, the beast out of the sea and the beast our of the earth, etc. And God's call for His people to come out of Babylon comes in Rev 18:4. So if the rapture has already occurred, then this call from God isn't intended for anyone who would have been raptured at the seventh trumpet.

[Sherree]

So if it is wrong for Christians to be a part of this evil system during the Tribulation then it should be just as wrong for Christians even before the Tribulation and rapture.

I agree with you here, Forty9er. The thing is, what is this evil system? Just in this thread alone, we all don't agree as to what Mystery Babylon is. I think it will become clear as to what it is as time goes on. It's apparent that some followers of Christ are deceived about what it is and are caught up in it, or Christ wouldn't have to tell us to come out of her.

Just for clarification, Cary , Pastor Guest, and myself are post tribbers. I don't think that was the point of Cary's comments, but I won't speak for him.

[Off-Grid Organics]

mid-trib or a pre-wrath rapture as opposed to post-trib

This is a cool topic. Though I do not believe in a commonly taught 'rapture' like the La Haye/Jenkins stuff, I do believe the bride will be taken to a place of safety here on earth. Of note are a couple different words to describe this event (His coming) as shown here:

1Th 2:19 For what is our expectation, or joy, or crown of boasting? Is it not even you, before our Master יהושע Messiah at His coming?

Mat 24:48 “But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

One MAY be to gather His bride only...the other MAY be after He reveals Himself to the world? Dunno...thought it was interesting...and this nugget:

Deu 24:5 “When a man has taken a new wife, let him not go out into the army nor let any matter be imposed upon him. He shall be exempt one year for the sake of his home, to rejoice with his wife whom he has taken.

Now, would that apply to Messiah when He takes His bride? Food for thought!

[Samuel Adams]

Mystery Babylon is the culmination of all the prophets and priests of Baal who can and will give
you, usually immediately, for a compromise of NT principles and a price.....what Father either won't give
you, or will require you to work and earn for, before allowing you to have.

Banking.....insurance industries.....the sorcerers of the monopolized medical profession......

Satan is all about keeping you comfortable and complacent.....all about enticing you to accept from him what Father is wise enough not to give......immediately, if at all.

Start there and work your way out.

[Sherree]

Start there and work your way out.

Sorta like....Whatever the crowd is doing, Christians should run to do the opposite? Satan is the ruler of this world, and he has multitudes following him in religious and political circles not to mention everything in between.

[Forty9er]

I agree with you here, Forty9er. The thing is, what is this evil system? Just in this thread alone, we all don't agree as to what Mystery Babylon is. I think it will become clear as to what it is as time goes on. It's apparent that some followers of Christ are deceived about what it is and are caught up in it, or Christ wouldn't have to tell us to come out of her.

Yes, there are many candidates but whatever the exact meaning, it is a system that is opposed to God and everything that is righteous. As it already has been mentioned, the RCC has been a prime candidate and if that is true then the meaning of coming out of her would be clear. I don't know exactly but I tend to think it is a more general reference to everything in the world today that is opposed to God.

Just for clarification, Cary , Pastor Guest, and myself are post tribbers.

If that is true then I must have been mistaken about Pastor believing the seventh trumpet of Revelation was the last trumpet since the seventh trumpet seems to occur some significant time before the end of the Tribulation. But that is probably a discussion for another thread.

[Sherree]

Yes, there are many candidates but whatever the exact meaning, it is a system that is opposed to God and everything that is righteous.

Yes, I agree.

If that is true then I must have been mistaken about Pastor believing the seventh trumpet of Revelation was the last trumpet since the seventh trumpet seems to occur some significant time before the end of the Tribulation. But that is probably a discussion for another thread.

I can't remember how Pastor Guest explained it, and I could be wrong about his tribulation beliefs. I just know that he has said on several occasions that he is post trib. Yes, I agree this is a discussion for another thread.

[ractivist]

I view Babylon as all of America, or within the confines of America, not necessarily "all" the people within the borders.

I see the verse that eludes to her burning up within an hour being the nuke attack nationwide, not just NY.

Coming out of her, is not the physical aspect persay. It's the repentance, stupid..... to steal a line. America will burn, and then shortly Armageddon comes calling, as Babylon simmers....

[CaryC]

Hey 9er,

Didn't mean it to get off on rapture timing.

My intent was to draw attention to the fact no one agrees as to what Mystery Babylon is. If, as you say there may be a build up to that.......call it....event where God says to come out of her, and that build up is at work in the world today........taking a pre-trib/dispensational view point it doesn't apply since it will be in a different dispensation.

If that statement to "come out of her" applied to this dispensation, the Church Age, that statement would appear in the epistles. Again the meaning is to the unknown meaning of Mystery Babylon. We, whether one believes in different dispensations, or not, are living on this side of Rev. 6. (At least for those who don't believe Rev. has already happened) Once we cross the boundary of Rev. 6 it would appear that it no longer is a Mystery.

We that are alive today can look back through history covered in the Bible and see God's character, ways, means of doing things. For instance:

When ever God gave instructions, those instructions were very clear, very precise, and very simple.

Each shall bear fruit after it's own kind. Do not eat of this particular tree.

Thou shall not have no other God's before me. Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not lie, Thou shalt not covet, etc.....

Concerning His instructions on ....festivals, and ceremonies. Thou shalt take a lamb of one year old, without spot and blemish, and keep in your house for 7 days, and then on the 7th day thou shalt kill it and eat it. While standing, and in traveling clothes etc..... Then in memorial that shall on the 14th day of the 7th month do this and that etc...

In building the Temple, thou shalt build it this long and no longer, this wide and no wider, this high and no higher etc.....

In the NT: take the water pots (the 6 that were standing there) and fill them with water, once you do that take out a dipper full and take it the governor. Go here and ask for a donkey and bring it to me. Go here and in 3 days I will meet you there.

Even in the 7 letters in Rev. do this, or I will do this etc....

All of them are very clear, very precise, and very simple.

Now when it gets to this Mystery Babylon it gets vague?????????? The instruction is clear, very precise, and very simple, "come out of her my people". As to what we are to come out of is......what exactly?

The inscription is on the forehead of a woman who sits on a beast, that beast has 7 heads, and 10 horns, a clear reference to Daniel, and if that is not enough the angel goes on to explain to John what it is. It is an end time political system. 10-3=7 that give power to the beast. Which hasn't come into being yet.

And if that is not enough the angel goes on to explain the woman that had the inscription is actually a city, (Rev. 17: 1 "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth".

What city exactly is that? New York, Washington DC, Brussels (where they actually have a statue of a woman riding a beast in front of the EU building) London, Berlin (who does sort of dictate to the rest of the EU, especially through it's finances and is where the Pergamum Museum is housed) Rome, a city on 7 hills, and at one time did tell kings what they could and could not do? And I might add, I don't live in any of them.

Then in Rev. 18 it states "fallen, fallen is Babylon". Not Mystery Babylon, just Babylon, are they the same city? And it is this city "the habitation of demons", that another voice says to "come out of her my people" which if Mystery Babylon and this Babylon are the same is directing the people of God to get out of this particular city. Which He has done before-note Sodom, and when you see this.... run to the hills.

They may be the same since the "Mystery" has been revealed in the previous chapter.

Then God directs his people to come out of her (the city) because she is being destroyed, as is evidenced in most of 18. And it is a pattern of God to warn His people of impending destruction, as noted with Sodom, and in the gospels of running to the hills, (which they did) and as noted to the watchmen in the OT. And I might add the people in the Bible who were reading the Bible took the meaning literally, meaning they would see this as a literal city.

It has been put forward that this is actually a political system, an economic system, a religious system, and that we are not to be a part of it (come out of her).

The simplest understanding is that it is an actual city, and at the time Rev. 17,18, 19 it will be known which city it is referencing. It will be destroyed, and God is warning His people to get out. Which is something He has always done. We just don't know which one, on this side of Rev. 6.

If however, it is one of the other 3 systems, it is still a Mystery, on several levels, and the explanation given, doesn't clear up anything.

And I have to admit God can design it that way. It was an unknown that the Messiah would have two comings, it was a mystery, until He came the first time as a suffering servant, the Lamb of God, even though it was written about for centuries.

I have to admit that I lean towards it being a city, just because it is simple, and I'm just a big dummy. BUT not wanting to get backed into a corner on it, keeping eyes, ears, and any sensitivity I might have to the leading of the Holy Spirit open to find out. If He wants me out, I am willing to get out, just let me know, specifically.

Thanks for being interested in what I have to say, and yes I am post-trib, or more accurately, very near the end. My post wasn't meant to be a throw off on pre-trib, just meant to show that no matter the belief concerning the end times, Mystery Babylon is a Mystery.

[CaryC]

Just for fun check out this thread, and note the first couple of paragraphs:

http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...at-is-Brussels